I dont have much time to add to that conversation but i'll just say: "Always compromise, never approach politics with absolutes"... is an absolute.
By DY_nasty Go To Postlol @ anti militaryYou agreed with me a bit welcome to the anti-military party even though I made no stipulations as to how I feel about war or military intervention.
By Tea Go To PostYou agreed with me a bit welcome to the anti-military party even though I made no stipulations as to how I feel about war or military intervention.
You're "anti military" as it relates to the status quo. You want less military engagement, less military funding and more military oversight then either party provides you and you want the Democratic Party to be more in line with your views on the military than they currently are.
And if you don't. That doesn't matter. What matters is the argument you presented as it relates to both parties supporting Iraq and the military industrial complex. What you personally believe is irrlevant if it doesn't align with the argument you're presenting and we're discussing.
Much in the same way that I'm far more progressive personally than what I expect and defend out of democratic politicians but my ideological beliefs aren't what we're discussing
<-------------------------D---X----R----------------------->
<------X-----------------D------R-------------------------->
Where X represents where you view the world from - D and R seem different depending on where you're standing. They are different but being in the second diagram doesn't allow you to see it as such.
We're either discussing what policies we both personally support or we're discussing the arguments we're making regarding political reality. If he's making an argument that's more anti-military than either party, his personal belief being different or his personal opinion of his belief being different isn't really what we're discussing.
Maybe he thinks I paint him as being too anti-military and that's fine. But in the context of where the political parties stand his complaint is that they're too pro-military in the traditional ways we understand it. Spending, engagement, and support for bases.
<------X-----------------D------R-------------------------->
Where X represents where you view the world from - D and R seem different depending on where you're standing. They are different but being in the second diagram doesn't allow you to see it as such.
By blackace Go To PostOh 3SP deciding what is relevant again… good times
We're either discussing what policies we both personally support or we're discussing the arguments we're making regarding political reality. If he's making an argument that's more anti-military than either party, his personal belief being different or his personal opinion of his belief being different isn't really what we're discussing.
Maybe he thinks I paint him as being too anti-military and that's fine. But in the context of where the political parties stand his complaint is that they're too pro-military in the traditional ways we understand it. Spending, engagement, and support for bases.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To Post<————————-D—X—-R———————–>So that makes what a person says irrelevant?
<——X—————–D——R————————–>
Where X represents where you view the world from - D and R seem different depending on where you're standing. They are different but being in the second diagram doesn't allow you to see it as such.
I mean a crux that you throw out a lot is racism / sexism but how much have you gone through?
Getting it from all angles your view point a lot
By blackace Go To PostSo that makes what a person says irrelevant?
I mean a crux that you throw out a lot is racism / sexism but how much have you gone through?
Getting it from all angles your view point a lot
That makes what a person says dangerous. Because if you're far away you don't see that the movement of 6 of those spaces creates massive damage that then requires a ton of effort just to bring back to the original starting point.
As painful as it is, Barack Obama drinking the water in Flint isn't as bad as a politician that wants nationwide voter suppression laws and nationwide stop and frisk laws.
As painful as it is that Obama made a promise to recognize the Armenian Genocide but didn't, it's not as bad as a what Trump plans for America, including Armenian Americans.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostThat makes what a person says dangerous. Because if you're far away you don't see that the movement of 6 of those spaces creates massive damage that then requires a ton of effort just to bring back to the original starting point.It's an angle you can't see because you can't look at the whole picture or understand how both parties have fucked the same people over endlessly... One more than the other but still...
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostGet off the absolutes. Sliding scale. One side wants more, other side wants less. It's not an accident that military spending faced cuts under Obama and will rise again under TrumpComing from a person who screams nazi and baby rapers about people who voted against Clinton... lol
By blackace Go To PostComing from a person who screams nazi and baby rapers about people who voted against Clinton… lol
How is calling someone a Nazi an absolute? You're thinking I'm arguing that a sliding scale makes it so that you're less able to criticize. I'm arguing the opposite.
By blackace Go To PostIt's an angle you can't see because you can't look at the whole picture or understand how both parties have fucked the same people over endlessly… One more than the other but still…
You're right. But the country is in the first diagram not the second. One party is moving the country further left then the X is and one party is moving it further right. The fact that someone happens to be far to the left of the rest of the country doesn't change what's actually happening - it just changes the perception of what's happening.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostHow is calling someone a Nazi an absolute? You're thinking I'm arguing that a sliding scale makes it so that you're less able to criticize. I'm arguing the opposite.saying if you do this you are that is the exact meaning of absolute...
2 + 2 = 4 that's an absolute
if you voted for Trump you are a nazi / racist / baby raper is an absolute
By blackace Go To Postsaying if you do this you are that is the exact meaning of absolute…
2 + 2 = 4 that's an absolute
if you voted for Trump you are a nazi / racist / baby raper is an absolute
If you voted for Trump you are pushing the country more towards racism more towards fascism is the argument. One candidate is pushing the country towards less of it, one candidate is pushing a country towards more of it.
You're for LGBT rights if you're pushing for progress. You're anti LGBT rights if you're not. You don't need to be supporting absolute equality in all things to be one or supporting instant killing of gays on sight to be the other.
The reason why racist 75 year olds who were progressive 50 years ago exist is because at some point the country moved past that they were willing to fight for. 50 years ago they were pushing the country in the right direction and today they're pushing it in the wrong. 50 years from now if I'm pushing for more racism or more sexism than I'll be behaving like a racist and a sexist.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostIf you voted for Trump you are pushing the country more towards racism more towards fascism is the argument. One candidate is pushing the country towards less of it, one candidate is pushing a country towards more of it.
You're for LGBT rights if you're pushing for progress. You're anti LGBT rights if you're not. You don't need to be supporting absolute equality in all things to be one or supporting instant killing of gays on sight to be the other.
The reason why racist 75 year olds who were progressive 50 years ago exist is because at some point the country moved past that they were willing to fight for. 50 years ago they were pushing the country in the right direction and today they're pushing it in the wrong. 50 years from now if I'm pushing for more racism or more sexism than I'll be behaving like a racist and a sexist.
There are a number of reasons people vote and most of them selfish... but that doesn't make them absolutely this or that...
By blackace Go To PostThere are a number of reasons people vote and most of them selfish… but that doesn't make them absolutely this or that…
You're redefining what I mean by absolutes.
<----------------------------------------->
Absolutes are the edges.
<--------------------D-----R------X-------------> where the right is 1776 racism and the left is complete absence of it.
X is functionally racist. He is pushing the country more towards racism than it is
<----------------------------------X---D----R-----> this X is not even though they occupy the exact same spot on the scale.
You don't have to be an absolute on the left to criticize anyone else and you don't have to be an absolute on the right to be criticized.
You're either doing your part to move the country to the left or to the right. No one person or one generation or one lifetime succeeds in moving it all the way. It's just about the context of where the country is.
I am using the word as is... I don't need to redefine the word. You are the one trying to forge the word to fit your point of view and for some reason upset that nobody understands?
And again... coming from a person whose grandparents were children of slaves your diagram don't look right
Your scale is incredibly simplistic. It also means the Democrats should lean ever closer to the Republicans, precisely when Republicans are leaning further right. A reactionary race to the Right, justified by the necessity of appearing reasonable, doing compromises with the Paul Ryans of this world, etc.
That brand of politics, which is the very definition of Clintonism with all the inspiration he took from Reagan, is dying, dare I hope.
That brand of politics, which is the very definition of Clintonism with all the inspiration he took from Reagan, is dying, dare I hope.
By Gabyskra Go To PostYour scale is incredibly simplistic. It also means the Democrats should lean ever closer to the Republicans, precisely when Republicans are leaning further right. A reactionary race to the Right, justified by the necessity of appearing reasonable, doing compromises with the Paul Ryans of this world, etc.We must be standing in the wrong spot
That brand of politics, which is the very definition of Clintonism with all the inspiration he took from Reagan, is dying, dare I hope.
This discussion is never going to go anywhere btw, which I'm sure most of you know.
3sp basically is a lesser of two evils guy while the rest are we don't want a lesser evil
3sp basically is a lesser of two evils guy while the rest are we don't want a lesser evil
By Rob Go To PostThis discussion is never going to go anywhere btw, which I'm sure most of you know.the issue is that the good vs evil argument is trash and lazy.
3sp basically is a lesser of two evils guy while the rest are we don't want a lesser evil
I don't understand the people that think Trump has some master plan to distract people.
When Trump attacked a disabled reporter and went down three points in the polls because of it, that was just because a fuckhead, not because of some master plan. He's just a fuckhead.
I think people who think Trump has a master plan of distraction are actually like conspiracy theorists... Conspiracy theorists can't believe that the world can be so random and cruel so they come up with someone or something that runs the show to comfort themselves. Trump truthers can't believe that we elected someone who is this unstable so they assume he is stable but cunningly evil because the idea of having a completely unstable person as president is much more terrifying...
When Trump attacked a disabled reporter and went down three points in the polls because of it, that was just because a fuckhead, not because of some master plan. He's just a fuckhead.
I think people who think Trump has a master plan of distraction are actually like conspiracy theorists... Conspiracy theorists can't believe that the world can be so random and cruel so they come up with someone or something that runs the show to comfort themselves. Trump truthers can't believe that we elected someone who is this unstable so they assume he is stable but cunningly evil because the idea of having a completely unstable person as president is much more terrifying...
By IWMTB19 Go To PostI don't understand the people that think Trump has some master plan to distract people.i don't think anyone here believes truly believes he's distracting people. he's a godlike troll and showman though who's a master of his audience.
When Trump attacked a disabled reporter and went down three points in the polls because of it, that was just because a fuckhead, not because of some master plan. He's just a fuckhead.
I think people who think Trump has a master plan of distraction are actually like conspiracy theorists… Conspiracy theorists can't believe that the world can be so random and cruel so they come up with someone or something that runs the show to comfort themselves. Trump truthers can't believe that we elected someone who is this unstable so they assume he is stable but cunningly evil because the idea of having a completely unstable person as president is much more terrifying…
By Dark PhaZe Go To Postthe last weeks events are concerning to say the least–Trump will be a fucking disaster.
Best case scenario is that he focuses the first year trying and failing to repeal Medicare and can't get other stuff done.
http://time.com/4584423/ied-explosion-mindanao-philippines-wounds-seven/?xid=time_socialflow_twitter
things surely wont get worse
things surely wont get worse
Man ... I've been so into politics that when the loss happened my actual internet time went down drastically because I just can't bring myself to come to the table. On the positive I don't think I've been to the other site at all since the only reason I went there was due to political discussion.
We're gonna put accelerationism to the test. WEEEEEEEEEEE
By IWMTB19 Go To PostBest case scenario is that he focuses the first year trying and failing to repeal Medicare and can't get other stuff done.
We're gonna put accelerationism to the test. WEEEEEEEEEEE
By DY_nasty Go To Posti don't think anyone here believes truly believes he's distracting people. he's a godlike troll and showman though who's a master of his audience.I think it's entirely possible that Bannon and co. are giving Trump license to tweet a limited amount so they can focus on staffing the administration (and later governing) with as little attention being paid to them as possible.
But I don't think it's Trump doing it intentionally. I truly don't think he cares about anything other than making money and people paying attention to him.
People are gonna be so continuously "I CAN'T BELIEVE THE PRESIDENT TWEETED/SAID X" that the important, boring stuff will go by without much public attention.
We shall see. He was advocating a ban of Muslims and other reprehensible policies and people were losing their shit over emails.
His every tweet becomes a trending topic and gets headlines.
His every tweet becomes a trending topic and gets headlines.
Most white working class people in the Midwest hate Muslims though so of course they cared more about Hillary's emails.
... These people are going to care a bit more when Trump tries to repeal Medicare.
And there's no real competition or possibly horserace coverage that leads to "BOTH SIDES!" when one party controls the entire government.
... These people are going to care a bit more when Trump tries to repeal Medicare.
And there's no real competition or possibly horserace coverage that leads to "BOTH SIDES!" when one party controls the entire government.
By Gabyskra Go To PostYour scale is incredibly simplistic. It also means the Democrats should lean ever closer to the Republicans, precisely when Republicans are leaning further right. A reactionary race to the Right, justified by the necessity of appearing reasonable, doing compromises with the Paul Ryans of this world, etc.
That brand of politics, which is the very definition of Clintonism with all the inspiration he took from Reagan, is dying, dare I hope.
No, the democrats should win and maintain power. Being far left and losing does much of nothing and winning and veering too far left and then getting your ass kicked 2 years later also does nothing.
Republicans controlled congress from 1993-2007. Dems struggle to hold it for 4 years at a time now. And Hillary had the most progressive platform that's ever existed by a democratic nominee for president. The two sides are further apart than they've ever been. To suggest that 2016 Dems ran a campaign closer to their republican counterparts than 2008 or 2000 or 1992 Dems is just revisionist.
Again, you're on the farrrrrrrrrr left so you interpret things as being alike when they're not.
By blackace Go To PostAnd again… coming from a person whose grandparents were children of slaves your diagram don't look right
Your grandparents parents were slaves. Your grandparents lived through Jim Crow. And you're a history major who lives in Japan. Are you sure my diagram doesn't look right?
By Rob Go To PostThis discussion is never going to go anywhere btw, which I'm sure most of you know.
3sp basically is a lesser of two evils guy while the rest are we don't want a lesser evil
No. I'm a "this is how democracy actually works guy".
By DY_nasty Go To Postlmao i'm not saving you. you clearly have no idea how you sound
I get how it sounds and that it's actually really fucked up. That's just the society we live in. Once the rules were set it's been 240 years of struggle to get to this point. It shouldn't have been that way but it's an indication that the slow inch by inch march of progress is exactly how his works and losing 4 or 8 years and three steps back is exactly why it's such a big deal. Because it takes centuries and generations and we're still not where things need to be.
Trump is now floating the idea that you lose your citizenship if you commit constitutionally protected acts.
But Democrats are the same though
But Democrats are the same though
the society we live in is one where white guys can feel free and proud to tell black people and women how they should feel about america~
By DY_nasty Go To Postthe society we live in is one where white guys can feel free and proud to tell black people and women how they should feel about america~
You could feel however you want. I already hinted that my personal ideologies are much more progressive than the current Democratic Party. But feeling like the two parties are the same doesn't make it so and feeling like Trump won't stifle progress and push us back a few steps that Hillary wouldn't have done doesn't make it so either.
And I'm saying the same shit to you and ace that I'm saying to Gaby and Tea. You want more racial and gender progress but you spent months convincing folks that Emails was as big of a deal as Pussy grabbing open racism.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostYou could feel however you want. I already hinted that my personal ideologies are much more progressive than the current Democratic Party. But feeling like the two parties are the same doesn't make it so and feeling like Trump won't stifle progress and push us back a few steps that Hillary wouldn't have done doesn't make it so either.so progressive that you fall back on "your ancestors were slaves, why don't you agree with my selective liberalism?" when you've run out of sauce
By DY_nasty Go To Postso progressive that you fall back on "your ancestors were slaves, why don't you agree with my selective liberalism?" when you've run out of sauce
Ace knows History enough to know that we didn't go from 0 to conditional amendment. First the northern states abolished slavery. Then it became
Illegal to have slavery in the new territories and the importing of new slaves became illegal and then slavery was abolished after a civil war.
If any of those steps in-between were rolled back, slavery would take longer to abolish.
Win a battle. Then win the next battle. Saying shit like "slavery or no slavery what's the big difference" is how shit takes two steps back or stops progressing.
You say that knowing full well the 3/5 compromise was a shitshow.
Half-measures. Words that actually put into law the fucking inequities people try to rise above.
DADT was great too.
lol.
Half-measures. Words that actually put into law the fucking inequities people try to rise above.
DADT was great too.
lol.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostAnd I'm saying the same shit to you and ace that I'm saying to Gaby and Tea. You want more racial and gender progress but you spent months convincing folks that Emails was as big of a deal as Pussy grabbing open racism.bullshit lol
like no one here ever explained why blacks aren't over the clintons, how kaine for women is mencia level joke, and how the biggest slap in the face to everyone who stomached a hillary vote was how the dems put schumer up. i mean trump being a jackass for a few months is not going to erase years of policy. its just not. and even if he aims to shred amendments, he won't be the first president to try. will the left put up a fight?
with schumer? yeah. okay.
that's not even a white flag, its a glowing beacon to remind everyone that america is still subscribed to the logic of the missouri compromise
By Tea Go To PostYou say that knowing full well the 3/5 compromise was a shitshow.
Half-measures. Words that actually put into law the fucking inequities people try to rise above.
DADT was great too.
lol.
Ya. I said once the rules of the game were set we had to spend 240 years to fix the fucking messes. Pretending like both sides will do the same doesn't fix them though.
Also, to be clear, the 3/5ths compromise is one of the most misunderstood things in the constitution.
Non-white, non-straight, non-male persons have routinely been thrown under the bus for political purpose but of course assholes would talk about how prudent or necessary it was of the time.
*roll eyes*
*roll eyes*
By Tea Go To PostNon-white, non-straight, non-male persons have routinely been thrown under the bus for political purpose but of course assholes would talk about how prudent or necessary it was of the time.
*roll eyes*
A) I'm one of the voices that rejects the sanders wing approach of appealing to white working class voters by not playing identity politics. Was the biggest reason I supported Hillary in the primaries.
B) this entire discussion has been about racial and gender progress more than anything else.
C) wanting things to be as they should be is different from confronting political realities. We didn't go from killing people for being gay to gay marriage overnight. There were a ton of steps in between. Women's suffrage was one step in a line of progress for women. But complaining that Susan b Anthony wasn't progressive enough to also be a pioneer of the women's sexual liberation movement of the 60's is misplaced.
Standing off the side somewhere from where the real battles are being fought and throwing stones at both sides is the real definition of ain't shit. It's why libertarians ain't shit.
You gotta really pick and choose those moments too lol
lets not talk about the war on drugs, iraq war stuff, pleasdon'tbringuplibyaagainDY, notdronestrikeseitherDY, how we've shit on south and central america to the point where they can get hit by the largest earthquake in their country's history and STILL not want US aid...
lets talk about nazis
lets not talk about the war on drugs, iraq war stuff, pleasdon'tbringuplibyaagainDY, notdronestrikeseitherDY, how we've shit on south and central america to the point where they can get hit by the largest earthquake in their country's history and STILL not want US aid...
lets talk about nazis
women want maternity leave? equal pay and shit? oh - that issue only came up for the first time 2012
By DY_nasty Go To PostYou gotta really pick and choose those moments too lol
lets not talk about the war on drugs, iraq war stuff, pleasdon'tbringuplibyaagainDY, notdronestrikeseitherDY, how we've shit on south and central america to the point where they can get hit by the largest earthquake in their country's history and STILL not want US aid…
lets talk about nazis
How is talking about policies primarily of Reagan and Bush disproving my point?
And, if you think drone strikes were bad under Obama. Watch the flurry of shit that's about to go down