Politics | 2019 | Farewell Comrade

By DY_nasty Go To Postuhhh yeah

NK changing its posture to what it its doing now, even agitated, is a huge change of direction compared to where we were. "But they're still dicks" is gonna remain constant because that's literally NK's best way to bargain. They're no longer throwing rockets over Japan (and NO ONE wants Japan to find a reason to ditch the SDF and go ham on the Pacific again…) and China doesn't have to directly measure what sort of response they'd deal out should things get out of hand. If shit goes south later, whatever, reassess based on appropriate context. That's diplomacy and its best to evaluate all situations as ongoing with numerous factors instead of yes/no questions.

Its like people wanted that war or something. I mean, rip that bandaid is cool I'm with it but people change up on their stances all the time.

How much of that is down to Moon's entire administration being centred on improving relations with NK and easing tensions on the peninsula? NK's temporary change of attitude is due to Moon, not Trump. Trump's negotiations with Kim have been an utter failure. It was evident in Hanoi it's even more evident today.

By Perfect Blue Go To PostHow much of that is down to Moon's entire administration being centred on improving relations with NK and easing tensions on the peninsula? NK's temporary change of attitude is due to Moon, not Trump. Trump's negotiations with Kim have been an utter failure. It was evident in Hanoi it's even more evident today.

Moon had just got in the door at the time. But more than that, SK didn't really have a say in the matter either way lol. What are they gonna do against more than effective artillery that's been locked on their cities for decades and shelters that have been abandoned entirely out of complacency and the belief that the US will do the heavy lifting? The missiles are a separate point than SK's concerns too because they've been living at gunpoint and gotten used to it. Japan, Australia, the rest of the Pacific is not going to tolerate things like Seoul and has never counted on Seoul to protect them from NK either.

I mean, there's nothing SK can provide NK that's more important than a way out of this standoff that they have with the West and one way relationships with China/Russia.

Help me understand what you want out of the situation because there's very few realistic options regarding NK stepping off the ledge with any semblance of their control (and zero chance of a Korean Unification thanks to China) intact. People get really wishy washy on the topic. We were close to an open conventional war that would've led to the biggest clusterfucks in ages and we got Kim to the table. Is that bad?

By DY_nasty Go To PostMoon had just got in the door at the time. But more than that, SK didn't really have a say in the matter either way lol. What are they gonna do against more than effective artillery that's been locked on their cities for decades and shelters that have been abandoned entirely out of complacency and the belief that the US will do the heavy lifting? The missiles are a separate point than SK's concerns too because they've been living at gunpoint and gotten used to it. Japan, Australia, the rest of the Pacific is not going to tolerate things like Seoul and has never counted on Seoul to protect them from NK either.

I mean, there's nothing SK can provide NK that's more important than a way out of this standoff that they have with the West and one way relationships with China/Russia.

Help me understand what you want out of the situation because there's very few realistic options regarding NK stepping off the ledge with any semblance of their control (and zero chance of a Korean Unification thanks to China) intact. People get really wishy washy on the topic. We were close to an open conventional war that would've led to the biggest clusterfucks in ages and we got Kim to the table. Is that bad?

Not really arguing about SK’s military capabilities or any of that or how a war would turn out. I don’t care to play armchair general. My only point is that Kim’s current change in behaviour is entirely due to Moon’s various olive branches and his administration making NK relations its top priority. To say “SK didn’t really have a say in the matter either way” is just silly and somewhat offensive to the current SK administration, when they’re the other country on the peninsula and for them to have better relations works out for everyone involved, the US and China included. Hilariously enough that attitude of demeaning allies is why the US seems to have less and less allies every day. Also it is worth nothing SK has tried similar policies in the past that led to similar results and temporarily calming down NK. Compared to past US attempts which were only ever low-level talks.

Why were we on “the ledge” in the first place? We were close to war because of missteps from the WH and the fact that you guys have a complete imbecile as President, surrounded by imperialists and war mongers. The US administration is the sole reason war was even being talked about. You’re giving Trump credit for putting out the fire that he himself has set lol. Surely you see the problem here? It’s also not even the first time that the US got the North Koreans to the discussion table so I’m baffled as to why that’s some masterclass in diplomacy.

By Perfect Blue Go To PostNot really arguing about SK’s military capabilities or any of that or how a war would turn out. I don’t care to play armchair general. My only point is that Kim’s current change in behaviour is entirely due to Moon’s various olive branches and his administration making NK relations its top priority. To say “SK didn’t really have a say in the matter either way” is just silly and somewhat offensive to the current SK administration, when they’re the other country on the peninsula and for them to have better relations works out for everyone involved, the US and China included. Hilariously enough that attitude of demeaning allies is why the US seems to have less and less allies every day. Also it is worth nothing SK has tried similar policies in the past that led to similar results and temporarily calming down NK. Compared to past US attempts which were only ever low-level talks.

Why were we on “the ledge” in the first place? We were close to war because of missteps from the WH and the fact that you guys have a complete imbecile as President, surrounded by imperialists and war mongers. The US administration is the sole reason war was even being talked about. You’re giving Trump credit for putting out the fire that he himself has set lol. Surely you see the problem here? It’s also not even the first time that the US got the North Koreans to the discussion table so I’m baffled as to why that’s some masterclass in diplomacy.

For the bolded, naw. SK and NK do this dance at least twice every decade. Moon is not some pioneer.

My overall point though is that SK does not protect the Pacific from North Korea. SK doesn't protect our allies and it doesn't even protect itself. There's an entire tangent I could go off on about Japan being militarily neutered gave the entire Pacific room to breathe and that SK got the US stimilus package to hit them twice... but its probably a better discussion for a history thread that I'll eventually force myself to make. So good for them? Prisoner exchanges, better communication, bridge building is good and all but the moment any talk of a Korean Peninsula unification starts to take form China would air out the NK regime before anyone else lol...

Its not an armchair general statement either. The 'ledge' was something that plenty of others have noted in the past as an ongoing problem. Each US president has footed the bill of the NK problem to the next president but that was never going to last because eventually technology would allow NK's saber rattling to have more bass than simple artillery and small scale naval disturbances. Eventually, they'd gain access to missile technology that would propel their their theme from tolerable annoyance to something far more dangerous, and force more considerations as a result.

You have to go out of your way and blame NK's aggression on Trump. NK should've been brought to the table at least 3 decades ago. Every president has dealt with an outrageous NK. Trump is the only one that's had to deal with them using long range missiles to threaten the mainland and the entire region. That's why "Trump created this" is complete nonsense. No president wanted to deal with it. No other president really had to. Technology forced an inevitable confrontation.

Also, you're not really stating an alternative here. To think that anyone would start a fight with NK just to foot the bill on a leveled Seoul and the largest humanitarian crisis since WW2 is ridiculous. The only group who wants to push that is the NK regime, and they do that because "we can all go to hell lmao" is their primary bargaining point. Saying it louder with nukes is trusting the process finally paying off.

And this wasn't some proxy war bullshit in a strange land no one cares about either. This was direct threats on the US mainland too. That's more than a good enough reason to tell someone they can get all the smoke...

By DY_nasty Go To PostFor the bolded, naw. SK and NK do this dance at least twice every decade. Moon is not some pioneer.

My overall point though is that SK does not protect the Pacific from North Korea. SK doesn't protect our allies and it doesn't even protect itself. There's an entire tangent I could go off on about Japan being militarily neutered gave the entire Pacific room to breathe and that SK got the US stimilus package to hit them twice… but its probably a better discussion for a history thread that I'll eventually force myself to make. So good for them? Prisoner exchanges, better communication, bridge building is good and all but the moment any talk of a Korean Peninsula unification starts to take form China would air out the NK regime before anyone else lol…

Its not an armchair general statement either. The 'ledge' was something that plenty of others have noted in the past as an ongoing problem. Each US president has footed the bill of the NK problem to the next president but that was never going to last because eventually technology would allow NK's saber rattling to have more bass than simple artillery and small scale naval disturbances. Eventually, they'd gain access to missile technology that would propel their their theme from tolerable annoyance to something far more dangerous, and force more considerations as a result.

You have to go out of your way and blame NK's aggression on Trump. NK should've been brought to the table at least 3 decades ago. Every president has dealt with an outrageous NK. Trump is the only one that's had to deal with them using long range missiles to threaten the mainland and the entire region. That's why "Trump created this" is complete nonsense. No president wanted to deal with it. No other president really had to. Technology forced an inevitable confrontation.

Also, you're not really stating an alternative here. To think that anyone would start a fight with NK just to foot the bill on a leveled Seoul and the largest humanitarian crisis since WW2 is ridiculous. The only group who wants to push that is the NK regime, and they do that because "we can all go to hell lmao" is their primary bargaining point. Saying it louder with nukes is trusting the process finally paying off.

And this wasn't some proxy war bullshit in a strange land no one cares about either. This was direct threats on the US mainland too. That's more than a good enough reason to tell someone they can get all the smoke…

I get what you’re saying about the military stuff and I’ll admit I’m not well educated on military aspects like that, so I’ll take your word for it.

I don’t think it’s at all a stretch to blame the Trump administration on NK’s aggression and sabre rattling. Look at who is staffed in the administration at the time all of this was happening. John Bolton, Pompeo, Trump himself, people in Congress like Tom Cotton, Lindsey Graham, etc who all favour using American military power to “solve” problems worldwide. NK being aggressive was an attempt to counter that + they saw what happened with Trump revoking the Iran deal showing the US has no credibility for sticking with international agreements right now. I can’t picture the same scenarios playing out how they did if there was someone else in the WH.

Y’all don’t seem to get that most of the world views the US as the bad guy, especially now. NK is absolutely deserved in thinking that because why wouldn’t they? You’ve toppled regimes and leaders for years. It’s not a stretch for them to think that the US, especially under Trump aided by Pompeo and Bolton, would be planning moves to oust Kim. Dude wasn’t going to take all of that laying down. Everything Kim does is for the sake of self preservation, just like every other authoritarian regime.

Do you think there’s a threat of them actually using ICBMs with nukes and hitting the US? Or Japan? Perhaps Kim is out of his depth but I doubt this dude is an idiot where he’d be willing to commit suicide and have the peninsula blown back to kingdom come.