By FortuneFaded Go To PostBlack people are going to vote democrat regardless. You think they would have voted for Trump over Sanders? Pls.voting? you misunderstand me.
>and it isn't some recent framing either - minorities know all too well about how lip service and policy change with the seasons coming from liberals.<
there's no other option. which is a far cry from enthusiasm - especially when all that energy is created from the opposing force. god forbid the republicans stop telling people to go fuck themselves for once. there'd be no legs for these faux-progressive centrists to stand on anymore
It would be nice to think that the Trump administration would be avoidable with Bernie, but let's not forget the democrats were in a state of complacency and the republicans were emotionally charged over several factors.
They can just paint Bernie as a cranky old white man who wants to bring socialism to the United States.
They can just paint Bernie as a cranky old white man who wants to bring socialism to the United States.
By Flutter Go To PostIt would be nice to think that the Trump administration would be avoidable with Bernie, but let's not forget the democrats were in a state of complacency and the republicans were emotionally charged over several factors.imagine bernie with this congress
They can just paint Bernie as a cranky old white man who wants to bring socialism to the United States.
Even now you have democrats laughing at 'economic anxiety' being one of the reasons why Trump won. A totally valid explanation considering how the republicans took a self inflicted wound and blamed democrats for it.
Hell, I could see them spinning it as Trump, the young maverick vs the old socialist establishment from the swamp because that year was a carnival of stupidity.
Hell, I could see them spinning it as Trump, the young maverick vs the old socialist establishment from the swamp because that year was a carnival of stupidity.
I
One party is still energized around issues and policy goals, the other almost exclusively cults of personality and negative appeals to emotion. Policy is entiriely flexible. Which is not to say the left is without those things, but they don’t override all other concerns. The left still remains a mostly bottom up coalition whereas the right more than ever is top down.
Everyone is tribal, but not every tribe is almost exclusively energized around being against the out-groups the way the right has now become.
You keep going back to issues of ideological purity and that isn’t the argument I’m making. There are certainly aspects of the left where many have blind spots, where the representatives they elect fail to adhere to their promises, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the left as a whole, as a voting coalition. In that capacity the left remains mostly energized around advancing specific policy agendas or consistent ideological goals, not as much on the right. I mean you don’t vote for Trump and maintain support if you have some sort of ideological anchor. Basically every promise or agenda he has had sans harming immigrants haphazardly has been broken or waffled a million times. Yet support remains as high today as a year ago. When Trump proclaims were going to cut billions from the military the base cheers, when he says the government is going to pay for your healthcare the base cheers, when Trump says he’s going to pass a huge spending increase for the military the base cheers, when he says he will gut the ACA and attacks single payer as socialism the base cheers. When he bombs and speaks of escalation in Syria the base cheers, when he talks about stealing Iraq’s oil the base cheers, when he wants to leave Syria the base cheers.
By DY_nasty Go To Posti dont understand how you can say the left is focused on policy when people were more than happy to say that hillary clinton ran the most progressive campaign of all time lolAnd frankly I don’t quite grasp how you keep circling around to what comes off like a false equivalency?
and it isn't some recent framing either - minorities know all too well about how lip service and policy change with the seasons coming from liberals.
its just weird and maybe im misunderstanding but i'm not sure how you can frame democrats as more policy oriented than the right. if anything, one side is just plainly more deliberate in their actions and their voters expect as much vs the other. i mean shit, there's barely talk of policy right now other than simply being better than the other guys. i also don't get how you can call tribalism one way but not the other… like somehow either political party is above circling the wagons to protect mutual interests at any given moment
One party is still energized around issues and policy goals, the other almost exclusively cults of personality and negative appeals to emotion. Policy is entiriely flexible. Which is not to say the left is without those things, but they don’t override all other concerns. The left still remains a mostly bottom up coalition whereas the right more than ever is top down.
Everyone is tribal, but not every tribe is almost exclusively energized around being against the out-groups the way the right has now become.
You keep going back to issues of ideological purity and that isn’t the argument I’m making. There are certainly aspects of the left where many have blind spots, where the representatives they elect fail to adhere to their promises, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the left as a whole, as a voting coalition. In that capacity the left remains mostly energized around advancing specific policy agendas or consistent ideological goals, not as much on the right. I mean you don’t vote for Trump and maintain support if you have some sort of ideological anchor. Basically every promise or agenda he has had sans harming immigrants haphazardly has been broken or waffled a million times. Yet support remains as high today as a year ago. When Trump proclaims were going to cut billions from the military the base cheers, when he says the government is going to pay for your healthcare the base cheers, when Trump says he’s going to pass a huge spending increase for the military the base cheers, when he says he will gut the ACA and attacks single payer as socialism the base cheers. When he bombs and speaks of escalation in Syria the base cheers, when he talks about stealing Iraq’s oil the base cheers, when he wants to leave Syria the base cheers.
By Freewheelin Go To PostWhy do people even think socialism is bad?Because Americans have been brainwashed to love capitalism and hate shit that reigns it in or is an alternative. I don't have the perspective of other nations people so I won't speak to that.
By Freewheelin Go To PostWhy do people even think socialism is bad?Residuals from the propaganda campaigns of the Cold War and also the Southern Strategy.
By Freewheelin Go To PostWhy do people even think socialism is bad?oh boy here comes a whole lot of "fuck you i got mine" posts.
By Freewheelin Go To PostWhy do people even think socialism is bad?fuck you I got mine
By FortuneFaded Go To Postfuck you I got minelol
It depends on whether you mean the whole "socialism is scary" mindset that a lot of Americans have (as Jonm was referring to) or the actual arguments against socialism and it's efficacy.
the left is in no way bottom up wtf. i've been begging for that for years but at the local levels democrats have completely taken for granted their stations and neglected to develop anything until now - when of course desperation has demanded it.
and i'm not even saying that there's a sense of ideological purity, i'm saying that there's no enthusiasm for policy or the goals because each ends with compromise or half done intent from the start. its not even initiative which drives the left either. i wish i could give them credit for ideological standpoints.
its nice you feel great about the democrats right now but im probably just not going to agree with this rose tinted look on things like you are... you keep saying policy over and over and they can't even hold down a congress with zero options without looking dumb and turning on each other. the demands from the right are generally simple enough too. there doesn't need to be some sort of grand ideal or majestic purpose at work.
trump isn't popular simply because he can't get out of his own way. that's pretty much all it is. i wish it were more. if he stopped being a pure wwe showman, then what? shit, he'd be unstoppable lol
i don't get the GOP has no policy thing man... they're GOOD at fucking people up at all levels of government
and i'm not even saying that there's a sense of ideological purity, i'm saying that there's no enthusiasm for policy or the goals because each ends with compromise or half done intent from the start. its not even initiative which drives the left either. i wish i could give them credit for ideological standpoints.
its nice you feel great about the democrats right now but im probably just not going to agree with this rose tinted look on things like you are... you keep saying policy over and over and they can't even hold down a congress with zero options without looking dumb and turning on each other. the demands from the right are generally simple enough too. there doesn't need to be some sort of grand ideal or majestic purpose at work.
trump isn't popular simply because he can't get out of his own way. that's pretty much all it is. i wish it were more. if he stopped being a pure wwe showman, then what? shit, he'd be unstoppable lol
i don't get the GOP has no policy thing man... they're GOOD at fucking people up at all levels of government
By diehard Go To PostlolHonestly, outside of academia, finding someone that doesn’t immediately mischaracterize socialism in their arguments or work from a loaded place is like finding a white whale. Which is why I tend to lean on the social conditioning explanations. I have honestly yet to meet anyone that’s aversion to socialism whole cloth that doesn’t critically mischaracterize aspects of it.
It depends on whether you mean the whole "socialism is scary" mindset that a lot of Americans have (as Jonm was referring to) or the actual arguments against socialism and it's efficacy.
Many Americans don't even know how much socialism is already embedded in our society. Shit they demand too. You think most working people want to go back to the days of being without social security, work man's comp, sick days, no unemployment etc etc. But as I mentioned folks are brainwashed.
By Jonm Go To PostHonestly, outside of academia, finding someone that doesn’t immediately mischaracterize socialism in their arguments or work from a loaded place is like finding a white whale. Which is why I tend to lean on the social conditioning explanations. I have honestly yet to meet anyone that’s aversion to socialism whole cloth that doesn’t critically mischaracterize aspects of it.You're going to find people confusing socialistic policies with true socialism in this thread, it's pretty understandable though. Bring up just "socialism" and people will think of either and I don't know if you can say it's wrong without skipping the labels and just asking specifics.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostThe fuck is true socialism?
I'd definitely be blacklisted by the FBI if I was an American in the 60s
What else can you do when a cute girl, who is going bra-less as a feminist protest invites you to a socialist talk in college?
What else can you do when a cute girl, who is going bra-less as a feminist protest invites you to a socialist talk in college?
By DY_nasty Go To Postmad edits i respect it diehardjust my posting style tbh
By Random Ass Username Go To PostThe fuck is true socialism?is this a serious question?
on one hand, i don't think true socialism has ever happened in modern times... on the other hand, the VA is awful and i wish you all could understand what its like to expect a shoulder examination and instead have nurses ask if you're doing all the right things for the kidney transplant you didnt know you signed up for
*i dont think socialism can even occur at this point. anywhere
*i dont think socialism can even occur at this point. anywhere
I
Who are voters and supporters on the left taking their marching orders from though? Maddow? Trevor Noah? I need some help seeing the equivalency here to how Trump and Fox News essentially dictates the ideological and political positions of the entire right wing from moment to moment. The right more than ever is fundamentally a top down tribe in that respect and I don’t see the left equivalent anywhere on the left. Which is why Trump can get away with so much ideological inconsistency and broken promises and two years later Bernie v. Hillary is still raging.
Beliefs are almost entiriely fungible with supporters on the right, that’s not really the case with supporters on the left. Some issues sure, on a case by case basis, as that is true with anyone, but you’d be hard pressed to find Bernie supporters falling in line with some sort of Biden compromise that handed off more resources to private insurers and killed another round of the Medicare buy in or public option the way never Trumpers eventually turned into MAGA stans as Fox News shifted allegiances. Or a wholesale lefty equivalent of Trump reversing the anti cut and run rhetoric of the past ten years on the war on terror, making Mexico pay for the wall, or weaving in and out on government spending.
Again, I’m not saying the representatives elected are perfect vessels of policy purity or execution, so I’m not sure why you keep characterizing me as saying as such, but voters are energized and identifying with the left because of policy issues they want to see happen by and large. Many aren’t perfect across the board but as a whole the left is still on a different plane than how the right is operating these days, which is borderline fascist in its behavior imo.
By DY_nasty Go To Postthe left is in no way bottom up wtf. i've been begging for that for years but at the local levels democrats have completely taken for granted their stations and neglected to develop anything until now - when of course desperation has demanded it.
and i'm not even saying that there's a sense of ideological purity, i'm saying that there's no enthusiasm for policy or the goals because each ends with compromise or half done intent from the start. its not even initiative which drives the left either. i wish i could give them credit for ideological standpoints.
its nice you feel great about the democrats right now but im probably just not going to agree with this rose tinted look on things like you are… you keep saying policy over and over and they can't even hold down a congress with zero options without looking dumb and turning on each other. the demands from the right are generally simple enough too. there doesn't need to be some sort of grand ideal or majestic purpose at work.
trump isn't popular simply because he can't get out of his own way. that's pretty much all it is. i wish it were more. if he stopped being a pure wwe showman, then what? shit, he'd be unstoppable lol
Who are voters and supporters on the left taking their marching orders from though? Maddow? Trevor Noah? I need some help seeing the equivalency here to how Trump and Fox News essentially dictates the ideological and political positions of the entire right wing from moment to moment. The right more than ever is fundamentally a top down tribe in that respect and I don’t see the left equivalent anywhere on the left. Which is why Trump can get away with so much ideological inconsistency and broken promises and two years later Bernie v. Hillary is still raging.
Beliefs are almost entiriely fungible with supporters on the right, that’s not really the case with supporters on the left. Some issues sure, on a case by case basis, as that is true with anyone, but you’d be hard pressed to find Bernie supporters falling in line with some sort of Biden compromise that handed off more resources to private insurers and killed another round of the Medicare buy in or public option the way never Trumpers eventually turned into MAGA stans as Fox News shifted allegiances. Or a wholesale lefty equivalent of Trump reversing the anti cut and run rhetoric of the past ten years on the war on terror, making Mexico pay for the wall, or weaving in and out on government spending.
Again, I’m not saying the representatives elected are perfect vessels of policy purity or execution, so I’m not sure why you keep characterizing me as saying as such, but voters are energized and identifying with the left because of policy issues they want to see happen by and large. Many aren’t perfect across the board but as a whole the left is still on a different plane than how the right is operating these days, which is borderline fascist in its behavior imo.
I'm with DY. I'm just waiting for AIs to become sentient, pray it turns benevolent, and maybe then you could have a non-corrupt form of socialist government.
Until a young white man decides he wants true freedom and stabs the maincore with a spear.
Until a young white man decides he wants true freedom and stabs the maincore with a spear.
the wya
The VA certainly has a lot of problems but the way I see it is it’s core model is the same one we see in countries like England and Australia. Another closely related model in Singapore(which was an English colony that built its system primarily around England’s with additional influences from other models). All highly successful healthcare systems. Flawed in their own right(as all are) but they demonstrate that the core model is capable of delivering quality healthcare, universally, with greater cost efficiency.
Though in America there really is no support for that sort of total ownership and delivery of healthcare. The most lefty US idea with any popularity is Bernie’s single payer: publicly financed, publicly administered, privately deliverered reform.
By DY_nasty Go To Poston one hand, i don't think true socialism has ever happened in modern times… on the other hand, the VA is awful and i wish you all could understand what its like to expect a shoulder examination and instead have nurses ask if you're doing all the right things for the kidney transplant you didnt know you signed up forI have a lot of military relatives and friends so I don’t know firsthand but definitely second.
*i dont think socialism can even occur at this point. anywhere
The VA certainly has a lot of problems but the way I see it is it’s core model is the same one we see in countries like England and Australia. Another closely related model in Singapore(which was an English colony that built its system primarily around England’s with additional influences from other models). All highly successful healthcare systems. Flawed in their own right(as all are) but they demonstrate that the core model is capable of delivering quality healthcare, universally, with greater cost efficiency.
Though in America there really is no support for that sort of total ownership and delivery of healthcare. The most lefty US idea with any popularity is Bernie’s single payer: publicly financed, publicly administered, privately deliverered reform.
By Jonm Go To PostIi dont even think you're aware of the inherent bias you've got regarding the right. No matter what Maddow, Noah, whoever on MSNBC say - its about the right usually and what a clusterfuck it is. The majority of airtime on networks has been on Trump since before the election. So I'm not gonna really bend on what I say about being an opposing force to that is far more impactful than the policy on the way you're speaking of. I'm not even sure how you can say policy is a thing when the primary stance on all issues is to be essentially contrarian until something sticks pass reactionary "fuck trump's administration" and #pray4mueller. Which is fine. And I actually hope it works. But I'm also more than ready for Trump 2020.
Who are voters and supporters on the left taking their marching orders from though? Maddow? Trevor Noah? I need some help seeing the equivalency here to how Trump and Fox News essentially dictates the ideological and political positions of the entire right wing from moment to moment. The right more than ever is fundamentally a top down tribe in that respect and I don’t see the left equivalent anywhere on the left. Which is why Trump can get away with so much ideological inconsistency and broken promises and two years later Bernie v. Hillary is still raging.
Beliefs are almost entiriely fungible with supporters on the right, that’s not really the case with supporters on the left. Some issues sure, on a case by case basis, as that is true with anyone, but you’d be hard pressed to find Bernie supporters falling in line with some sort of Biden compromise that handed off more resources to private insurers and killed another round of the Medicare buy in or public option the way never Trumpers eventually turned into MAGA stans as Fox News shifted allegiances. Or a wholesale lefty equivalent of Trump reversing the anti cut and run rhetoric of the past ten years on the war on terror, making Mexico pay for the wall, or weaving in and out on government spending.
Again, I’m not saying the representatives elected are perfect vessels of policy purity or execution, so I’m not sure why you keep characterizing me as saying as such, but voters are energized and identifying with the left because of policy issues they want to see happen by and large. Many aren’t perfect across the board but as a whole the left is still on a different plane than how the right is operating these days, which is borderline fascist in its behavior imo.
I also don't think you can prop up Bernie supporters for going at Biden when Bernie didn't like to back up anything he was saying lol... Biden surprises no one who's followed his career.
You can say they're some hivemind or something, but they've been terribly efficient in locking up lower courts, smaller districts, and generally molding things in a way that it explicitly benefits their campaigns at all levels. Ask how efficient their policies are regarding stripping abortion down up in Ohio right now or how Democrats are just now asking how they lost control over the entire state of North Carolina. Its everywhere you look but Dems stopped looking because Obama meant everything was good.
They're not just yelling at Trump rallies contrary to popular belief.
I'm not characterizing you as anything other than a guy who's not giving the right their respect as an entity that's been wrecking shop from the ground up since 2008 or so...
By RobNBanks Go To PostThere's no mention of himselfI’m not surprised, apparently he hates Christmas cos it’s not about him lol
hacked or photoshop
By DY_nasty Go To Posti dont even think you're aware of the inherent bias you've got regarding the right. No matter what Maddow, Noah, whoever on MSNBC say - its about the right usually and what a clusterfuck it is. The majority of airtime on networks has been on Trump since before the election. So I'm not gonna really bend on what I say about being an opposing force to that is far more impactful than the policy on the way you're speaking of. I'm not even sure how you can say policy is a thing when the primary stance on all issues is to be essentially contrarian until something sticks pass reactionary "fuck trump's administration" and #pray4mueller. Which is fine. And I actually hope it works. But I'm also more than ready for Trump 2020.I mean the number one issue of Democratic voters this year was healthcare, not Trump. I’m not sure pointing to the big three corporate media giants is a fair pulse gatherer of the larger voting population of the left the way Fox influences the right. You don’t hear about politicians frightened to death that Maddow or Tapper will say something mean about them and mobilize the liberal base against them like Fox has the power to do.
I also don't think you can prop up Bernie supporters for going at Biden when Bernie didn't like to back up anything he was saying lol… Biden surprises no one who's followed his career.
You can say they're some hivemind or something, but they've been terribly efficient in locking up lower courts, smaller districts, and generally molding things in a way that it explicitly benefits their campaigns at all levels. Ask how efficient their policies are regarding stripping abortion down up in Ohio right now or how Democrats are just now asking how they lost control over the entire state of North Carolina. Its everywhere you look but Dems stopped looking because Obama meant everything was good.
They're not just yelling at Trump rallies contrary to popular belief.
I'm not characterizing you as anything other than a guy who's not giving the right their respect as an entity that's been wrecking shop from the ground up since 2008 or so…
Though I never said or would suggest the left is without their own tribalism, though arguably far more deserved though as one of the additional components of the rights slide into fascism is their complete abandonment of shame and concern for democratic norms. As numerous studies have shown, when given a choice between illiberalism and allowing the empowering of minority groups, conservatives would rather abandon democratic values and norms. And we see this being carried out in real time right now as not only is their not punishment for the litany of anti-democratic actions they are taking in places like Wisconsin and North Carolina, but support and rationalization for it.
I’m also not anywhere saying or meaning to imply that Republican politicians haven’t been incredibly successful at wrecking shop so to speak. They absolutely have. Republican politicians(outside Trump to a lesser extent) do have collectively clear policy and ideological goals and that is to enrich the already rich(in Trumps case himself and his ego). And they have been enormously successful at it. Which also further adds to my point about the supporters of the right being ideologically uninhibited as they by and large don’t support those policies enthusiastically but find ways to keep supporting the right wholeheartedly nonetheless.. Except with maybe some of the emotionally charged wedge issues that mobilize subsets of GOP voters. And you can look at how the GOP rallies their base to support their enrichments schemes as further evidence. The left ran on healthcare and policy, the right ran on caravans, immigrant fear, culture wars, and supporting Trump. That’s what Republicans themselves think gets their voters to the polls so they can pass tax cuts for the rich.
A centralized economy could never deliver the vast and various material demands efficient enough for children to enjoy this splendid season. With government pushes to green technologies, one can’t even expect coal in their stockings. Parents would become stressed and a new epidemic of Xanax addiction would go underground because Medicare for all would be the new VA.
Dude... That's the disconnect I'm talking about. You can say the Dems are running on healthcare all day but it's really about being not repubs or Trump associated. The front of all this is that it's somehow embarrassing to admit for whatever reason. If policy was so strong then Dems wouldn't be struggling top to bottom in the first place. I don't even know how that's debatable. Their best attribute has been to be more socially palatable.
And I didn't even get into media until you brought up Noah and Maddow lol.
If you want circles you can do that... But trying to speak the right being ineffective at enacting policy and entrenching itself methodically into existence is not doing anything other than making some of us sleep better at night.
And I didn't even get into media until you brought up Noah and Maddow lol.
If you want circles you can do that... But trying to speak the right being ineffective at enacting policy and entrenching itself methodically into existence is not doing anything other than making some of us sleep better at night.
By You got 14 bricks right there? Go To PostFuck the US.how fucking dare they take in someone sick and try treat them
By diehard Go To Posthow fucking dare they take in someone sick and try treat them
You have to wonder what these immigrants are thinking given the state of US healthcare.
Maybe he was one of the kids Trump talked to on the phone and he couldn't handle the truth about Santa
By Laboured Go To PostYou have to wonder what these immigrants are thinking given the state of US healthcare.Maybe they were just trying to pass through the US to get to Canada.
By Freewheelin Go To PostWhy do people even think socialism is bad?National Socialist German Workers' Party