The US Government will now issues sports visa's to Gamers who travel there for competition (better of tax purposes than a lot of other visa's, and shorter turn around time / higher priority in processing, many many benefits).
The thing that broke their back was, they asked for these "professional gamers" to show a skill that would separate them from the average player. The Starcraft 2 guys were the first ones who did this. They simply pointed out that amateurs can't maintain the same APM (actions per minute) that they can.
And as a result, they can now get visa's as professional sportsmen.
Hand eye co-ordination is a part of it, but there's much more to most of these games.
Your definition seems to be bogged down in forcing freak athleticism as the defining criteria. Something that hasn't been for a very long time. But it's something a lot of people do consider a part of it. So you wouldn't be alone.
I don't think e-sports need to define themselves as a "traditional" sport. I think putting the e in front clearly indicates they're not trying to call themselves football (of any kind). But the tag of sport indicates a contest between professional gamers who are participating with it as their profession. Makes it easier to market.
And I use Gamers in that context, the same as one would call the professional basketball player Danny Green a professional sportsman.
The thing that broke their back was, they asked for these "professional gamers" to show a skill that would separate them from the average player. The Starcraft 2 guys were the first ones who did this. They simply pointed out that amateurs can't maintain the same APM (actions per minute) that they can.
And as a result, they can now get visa's as professional sportsmen.
By Fenderputty Go To PostI think the best arguments revolve around hand eye coordination, which is definitely a physical skill. Nobody has argued that though so ...
Hand eye co-ordination is a part of it, but there's much more to most of these games.
By Fenderputty Go To PostI don't think my definition is all that complicated to apply really. I basically take GIRI's definition he listed above (rules / competition) and add some physicality to it. /shrug
Your definition seems to be bogged down in forcing freak athleticism as the defining criteria. Something that hasn't been for a very long time. But it's something a lot of people do consider a part of it. So you wouldn't be alone.
I don't think e-sports need to define themselves as a "traditional" sport. I think putting the e in front clearly indicates they're not trying to call themselves football (of any kind). But the tag of sport indicates a contest between professional gamers who are participating with it as their profession. Makes it easier to market.
And I use Gamers in that context, the same as one would call the professional basketball player Danny Green a professional sportsman.
To me a sport is just a form of competition, and what makes a sport so entertaining to watch or follow are the aspects of competition that sports provide. They can be individual or team competitions but they are still competitions nonetheless and either one appeals to a different demographic of people.
It's why people find things like competing at the Olympics or racing or any for of other competitive event fun. Figure skating is actually very demanding and so is gymnastics and even archery but sometimes aren't always treated the same as something like a relay or water polo. The same is said for things like competitive dancing like break dance. Yuzuru Hanyu puts in a ton of work into his profession as does someone like Dolce in Beatmania IIDX or someone like Fuudo in Gunslinger Stratos and Street Fighter and Tekken and Guilty Gear.
I don't really care whether or not something is a sport because at it's core it's a competition and that's the thing that makes watching or participating fun or entertaining.
It's why people find things like competing at the Olympics or racing or any for of other competitive event fun. Figure skating is actually very demanding and so is gymnastics and even archery but sometimes aren't always treated the same as something like a relay or water polo. The same is said for things like competitive dancing like break dance. Yuzuru Hanyu puts in a ton of work into his profession as does someone like Dolce in Beatmania IIDX or someone like Fuudo in Gunslinger Stratos and Street Fighter and Tekken and Guilty Gear.
I don't really care whether or not something is a sport because at it's core it's a competition and that's the thing that makes watching or participating fun or entertaining.
By 33MillionDollarMen Go To PostVideo games are art but their ability to actually be critical and expound upon themes is debatable.
Yeah. I think the biggest problem facing video games as an art form is the lack of any real substantive curation of its history.
Video games just seem so ephemeral next to other contemporary art forms.
I hate that the term esport became popular and much preferred "pro gaming" or "competitive gaming" but its dumb to get hung up on it.
I remember when ESPN used to show the top 10 halo highlights and Halo 2 was on tv on sunday mornings and the only thing that is convincing me that this isn't just another thing that will die off is that there are so many games that are getting popular.
The only thing I watch is pro CS:GO and I think it would be pretty easy for people to get into because it is fairly simple but it seems like ESPN is ignoring it on their site. Plus I think that its realistic people shooting each other might be limiting factor but then again Turner is starting their own televised league for it so what do I know.
I remember when ESPN used to show the top 10 halo highlights and Halo 2 was on tv on sunday mornings and the only thing that is convincing me that this isn't just another thing that will die off is that there are so many games that are getting popular.
The only thing I watch is pro CS:GO and I think it would be pretty easy for people to get into because it is fairly simple but it seems like ESPN is ignoring it on their site. Plus I think that its realistic people shooting each other might be limiting factor but then again Turner is starting their own televised league for it so what do I know.
I think golf is a sport so I'm not bogging myself down with freak athleticism.
Though
Though
I don't think e-sports need to define themselves as a "traditional" sport. I think putting the e in front clearly indicates tIs a good point. If they're carving out their own definition that's separate from the traditional definition then the term makes more sense
By Vlatko Go To PostI hate that the term esport became popular and much preferred "pro gaming" or "competitive gaming" but its dumb to get hung up on it.
I remember when ESPN used to show the top 10 halo highlights and Halo 2 was on tv on sunday mornings and the only thing that is convincing me that this isn't just another thing that will die off is that there are so many games that are getting popular.
The only thing I watch is pro CS:GO and I think it would be pretty easy for people to get into because it is fairly simple but it seems like ESPN is ignoring it on their site. Plus I think that its realistic people shooting each other might be limiting factor but then again Turner is starting their own televised league for it so what do I know.
I think the biggest problem for competitive shooters as a spectator sport is the limited perspective.
You either share the perspective of a single player or show some sort of birds eye view where the game looks absolutely unremarkable as it wasn't designed to be viewed that way
That's kind of why I think games like Dota and League translate so well to being speactator sports.(and Starcraft before them) Not only do you have the best view of the action possible as you're seeing the game from the perspective it was designed to be seen from, but as a spectator you also have the ability to see things that even the players can't see, which only adds to the tension, suspense and overall narrative of the match.
By Retro Go To PostI think the biggest problem for competitive shooters as a spectator sport is the limited perspective.I think the format of CS makes it less of a problem. Its round based, 5v5, and all of the action is funneled to two places so the "director" can easily tell where the important things will happen. Obviously you will still miss some things but most tournaments do a good job showing everything you need to see without confusing you.
You either share the perspective of a single player or show some sort of birds eye view where the game looks absolutely unremarkable as it wasn't designed to be viewed that way
That's kind of why I think games like Dota and League translate so well to being speactator sports.(and Starcraft before them) Not only do you have the best view of the action possible as you're seeing the game from the perspective it was designed to be seen from, but as a spectator you also have the ability to see things that even the players can't see, which only adds to the tension, suspense and overall narrative of the match.
I think something like this shows that off well.
Halo and respawn based shooters have a problem where there is so much always going on that if you don't know where to look you might just miss that something big just happened.
By Vlatko Go To PostI think the format of CS makes it less of a problem. Its round based, 5v5, and all of the action is funneled to two places so the "director" can easily tell where the important things will happen. Obviously you will still miss some things but most tournaments do a good job showing everything you need to see without confusing you.
I think something like this shows that off well.
Halo and respawn based shooters have a problem where there is so much always going on that if you don't know where to look you might just miss that something big just happened.
That addresses some of it, but I think the problem that it just isn't visually interesting outside of the first person perspective still hurts it.
That and CS happens so fast. League and Dota, while fast paced, give the audience enough time to really process the risk and the consequences of the match, either through how long kills or taking objectives take, or how long it takes for the player to get back into the match after dying and what the opponent accomplishes while they are gone.
It's also why I think Street Fighter has had the most success for fighting games viewer wise.(outside of brand recognition) There's alot less going on and movement is alot more restricted than in its contemporaries. So it's alot easier for a casual viewer to process the importance of the spacing and of each attack. It's still a fast game, but the pace of a match is slower than just about everything else out there.
Good spectator games have to find that pace where it's fast enough to be respected by your average player as being impressive to perform in, and being slow enough to where your average viewer can actually process the sequence of events of the match as it plays out.
By Fenderputty Go To PostSo you don't consider diving or gymnastics sports?I do not. Athletic activities. Not sports.
That doesn't make sense. Aren't both of those competitive?
Edit: oh you draw the line at utilizing judges to determine a winner.......which is even more odd
Edit: oh you draw the line at utilizing judges to determine a winner.......which is even more odd
By Retro Go To PostSo if a Boxing match goes to a decision, is it not a sport?Great point.
I tend to suspect a bit of sexism in the way people exclude activities from sports.
Gymnasts are easily some of the most athletic human beings around. If they don't participate in a "sport" I just...
By 33MillionDollarMen Go To PostGymnasts are easily some of the most athletic human beings around. If they don't participate in a "sport" I just...
I don't know how someone could think gymnastics is not sport but ok
I can at least see his logic. Like going off how I think Sport and Game are interchangeable, there's really little "game" aspect to gymnastics and other olympic sports.(From the perception of the layman at least) It's almost pure athletic performance.
So I can at least see how someone would arrive at that conclusion, as misinformed as it would be. (I'm pretty sure it's very well defined how routines are judged and scored in gymnastics. Those would be the rules)
It's just weird to draw a line at the necessity of judges of all things. Which is why I asked the question about Boxing to see if at least his position in consistently applied.
So I can at least see how someone would arrive at that conclusion, as misinformed as it would be. (I'm pretty sure it's very well defined how routines are judged and scored in gymnastics. Those would be the rules)
It's just weird to draw a line at the necessity of judges of all things. Which is why I asked the question about Boxing to see if at least his position in consistently applied.
By Retro Go To PostSo if a Boxing match goes to a decision, is it not a sport?Running and fighting of any kind are likely the oldest sports ever devised. Boxing and MMA are of course sports. Going to a decision is solely to determine a winner so that no one dies.
Gymnasts are by far some of the most athletic humans on the planet. That doesn't mean they take part in a sport. It's an opinionated event. Look at those crooked judges at the Salt Lake winter games. They totally fucked over those figure skaters and no one could say anything until an investigation was launched because, well, that's was their opinion and they're the judges. That's not a real sport to me.
By GQman2121 Go To PostRunning and fighting of any kind are likely the oldest sports ever devised. Boxing and MMA are of course sports. Going to a decision is solely to determine a winner so that no one dies.
Gymnasts are by far some of the most athletic humans on the planet. That doesn't mean they take part in a sport. It's an opinionated event. Look at those crooked judges at the Salt Lake winter games. They totally fucked over those figure skaters and no one could say anything until an investigation was launched because, well, that's was their opinion and they're the judges. That's not a real sport to me.
So
Gymnastics is not a sport because crooked judges can influence the outcome of a competition
But boxing is a sport, in spite of its long history of having crooked judges, crooked fighters, crooked promoters and crooked circuit owners influencing the outcome of the sport in all aspects.(individual fights, or entire league rankings)
I'm not trying to jump down your throat here, but this probably the wildest line in the sand I've ever encountered in one of these discussions
By GQman2121 Go To PostRunning and fighting of any kind are likely the oldest sports ever devised. Boxing and MMA are of course sports. Going to a decision is solely to determine a winner so that no one dies.Gymnastics is perhaps older than boxing...
Gymnasts are by far some of the most athletic humans on the planet. That doesn't mean they take part in a sport. It's an opinionated event. Look at those crooked judges at the Salt Lake winter games. They totally fucked over those figure skaters and no one could say anything until an investigation was launched because, well, that's was their opinion and they're the judges. That's not a real sport to me.
If the competitions where you do a bunch flips in the air or take punches to the face aren't sports, man...
By Retro Go To PostSoThe last sentence in the first paragraph though. So to say line in the sand isn't exactly accurate.
Gymnastics is not a sport because crooked judges can influence the outcome of a competition
But boxing is a sport, in spite of its long history of having crooked judges, crooked fighters, crooked promoters and crooked circuit owners influencing the outcome of the sport in all aspects.(individual fights, or entire league rankings)
I'm not trying to jump down your throat here, but this probably the wildest line in the sand I've ever encountered in one of these discussions
By blackace Go To PostGymnastics is perhaps older than boxing...I didn't specifically says anything about boxing. But fighting in general is most certainly an older competition than organized gymnastics. Or maybe it's not. I'm not looking that up.
Gymnastics is 1 of the oldest sports in the world. Top 10... most people date it around the 7th oldest sport in the known history of mankind. Maybe fighting of some form pre-dates it but that takes very little away from how old it is and how many different cultures have used in sporting throughout history... So if you are trying to use time as a way to validate sports...
it will crash and burn b/c Slasher is heading it
list of the only real sports
Football
Little League World Series
League of Legends
Korfball
list of the only real sports
Football
Little League World Series
League of Legends
Korfball
By blackace Go To PostGymnastics is 1 of the oldest sports in the world. Top 10... most people date it around the 7th oldest sport in the known history of mankind. Maybe fighting of some form pre-dates it but that takes very little away from how old it is and how many different cultures have used in sporting throughout history... So if you are trying to use time as a way to validate sports...At no point have I mentioned time having to do with anything regarding validation. It's certainly relevant but wasn't my point. I'm only saying that judged competitions are not in the same category of sport that something like racing or goalscoring/point oriented sports are where there is a clear victor.
By GQman2121 Go To PostAt no point have I mentioned time having to do with anything regarding validation. It's certainly relevant but wasn't my point. I'm only saying that judged competitions are not in the same category of sport that something like racing or goalscoring/point oriented sports are where there is a clear victor.Then why did how old fighting and running were even come up?
By blackace Go To PostThen why did how old fighting and running were even come up?he got caught up using a white argument
gymnastics has high potential for corruption, but I don't know if it's really that subjective (not any more so than fouls in major sports), the same with diving, each move in a routine is judged against its respective standard, so there are objective criteria to awarding high scores
anyway this thread is dumb, everyone has their own definition of sports, but esports offers fans the same experiences sports fans get, so to the people concerned it is a sport
anyway this thread is dumb, everyone has their own definition of sports, but esports offers fans the same experiences sports fans get, so to the people concerned it is a sport
By ReRixo Go To Postgymnastics has high potential for corruption, but I don't know if it's really that subjective (not any more so than fouls in major sports), the same with diving, each move in a routine is judged against its respective standard, so there are objective criteria to awarding high scoresbut the term "take a dive" literally comes from boxing... So the potential for corruption is everywhere.. the more money involved the higher it is
anyway this thread is dumb, everyone has their own definition of sports, but esports offers fans the same experiences sports fans get, so to the people concerned it is a sport
By blackace Go To PostThen why did how old fighting and running were even come up?It's certainly relevant but wasn't my point.