That finale was catastrophic.
First 35 minutes, literally nothing happened. Except ten minutes of Frank and his wife basically saying "go", "no", "go", "no".
Then everything else in the episode just...happened. No motivation. No pay off. No climactic scene that makes the preceding seven hours worth it.
Piece of shit.
First 35 minutes, literally nothing happened. Except ten minutes of Frank and his wife basically saying "go", "no", "go", "no".
Then everything else in the episode just...happened. No motivation. No pay off. No climactic scene that makes the preceding seven hours worth it.
Piece of shit.
Welp this shit sucked. I don't want a season 3 unless they add some writers to clean up Pizzolato's writing, or the get Fukunaga to come back to edit Pizzolato's writing. Either way I blame Pizzolato's writing for this shit.
By Zeus Ex Machina Go To PostWelp this shit sucked. I don't want a season 3 unless they add some writers to clean up Pizzolato's writing, or the get Fukunaga to come back to edit Pizzolato's writing. Either way I blame Pizzolato's writing for this shit.
He has no idea how to write characters, it's mad.
Rust and Marty were good, but then you realise Rust was just quoting other people's work and Marty was just reacting to other people's work and you realise that most of the good stuff about them was because of McConaughey and Harrelson.
There was literally no character development other than Ray didn't threaten to buttfuck people's corpses anymore. That's it.
There was no pay off. There was no theme other than "bad guys do what they want". Futile, pointless season of television. Had neither aspirations nor entertainment. Just pretention.
By n8 Go To PostHe has no idea how to write characters, it's mad. Rust and Marty were good, but then you realise Rust was just quoting other people's work and Marty was just reacting to other people's work and you realise that most of the good stuff about them was because of McConaughey and Harrelson. There was literally no character development other than Ray didn't threaten to buttfuck people's corpses anymore. That's it. There was no pay off. There was no theme other than "bad guys do what they want". Futile, pointless season of television. Had neither aspirations nor entertainment. Just pretention.
Yeah this season started shitty and except for that shoot out mid way through I don't think I enjoyed any of it. Even when I lowered my expectations and just judged it based on the how they went about solving the mystery this season failed. All of this should fall on Pizzolato's writing lacked any direction this season and he shouldn't be trusted to do a season 3 solo again.
Uh, what? Look, it wasnt absolutely amazing television, but saying there was no depth to the characters is crazy.
Frank is one of the more complicated gangsters ever portrayed in a single season on television. Has there ever been a more multi faceted and complicated female cop of any kind on television other than Ani? Maybe you can point to the one in X Files but that show had a million seasons.
The writing was bad at times, the crime story unnecessarily convoluted, but the main characters had tons of depth to them.
Ani being defined by what happened to her as a kid, Velcoro defining himself by what he did to that one guy, and Woodrough living a fake life as a tortured soul trying to "be a good man" as a rebellion against his homosexuality.
Again, there's a lot wrong with this season. But the 4 main characters aren't it.
Frank is one of the more complicated gangsters ever portrayed in a single season on television. Has there ever been a more multi faceted and complicated female cop of any kind on television other than Ani? Maybe you can point to the one in X Files but that show had a million seasons.
The writing was bad at times, the crime story unnecessarily convoluted, but the main characters had tons of depth to them.
Ani being defined by what happened to her as a kid, Velcoro defining himself by what he did to that one guy, and Woodrough living a fake life as a tortured soul trying to "be a good man" as a rebellion against his homosexuality.
Again, there's a lot wrong with this season. But the 4 main characters aren't it.
Multi faceted? She was defined by sexual assault and that's it. A stoic humourless cop is nothing new. It just happened to be a woman over a man. Kima Greggs in The Wire was far better written.
Woodrugh offered nothing except some sort of commentary on gay closeted soldiers. No indictment of that, nothing interesting. Two seconds before he was shot, someone told him he should have just been himself. That it was a happy coincidence that there was photos of him. That's lazy writing, using his sexuality as a crutch.
Frank is one of the more complicated gangsters ever on tv? In a world where Tony Soprano, Stringer Bell, Walter White and Nucky Thompson exist? I'm sorry, I disagree entirely.
Woodrugh offered nothing except some sort of commentary on gay closeted soldiers. No indictment of that, nothing interesting. Two seconds before he was shot, someone told him he should have just been himself. That it was a happy coincidence that there was photos of him. That's lazy writing, using his sexuality as a crutch.
Frank is one of the more complicated gangsters ever on tv? In a world where Tony Soprano, Stringer Bell, Walter White and Nucky Thompson exist? I'm sorry, I disagree entirely.
By n8 Go To PostMulti faceted? She was defined by sexual assault and that's it. A stoic humourless cop is nothing new. It just happened to be a woman over a man. Kima Greggs in The Wire was far better written. Frank is one of the more complicated gangsters ever on tv? In a world where Tony Soprano, Stringer Bell, Walter White and Nucky Thompson exist? I'm sorry, I disagree entirely.
Again, you're talking about a) the best shows ever b) shows with 5 or 6 seasons.
Having to go to the wire, sopranos, and breaking bad as your frame of reference for why a one season show's characters lack depth should instantly make u go "wait? Maybe I'm judging this too harshly".
She was defined by her dad's parenting style, by a traumatic evnt in childhood which is a pretty big deal, by her siblings fuckups and her mom abandoning her. There was a ton of shit there.
There are a million cops on television, and other than Kima from the Wire, she might be the best female one there is.
Woodrough wasn't defined by being gay. He was defined by living a lie because he was obsessed with being a good man. Marrying a women he shouldn't have because he never loved her. Taking on a case that was far above his pay grade because he wanted to follow orders, sexually repressive because of some old fashioned view on homosexuality. His was a cautionary tale about trying to be a good guy instead of being comfortable in your own skin, and in tune with what you really want out of life. Even if he lived, he'd be trapped in a loveless marriage, having homosexual affairs then going on benders all his life
By Vahagn Go To PostAgain, you're talking about a) the best shows ever b) shows with 5 or 6 seasons. Having to go to the wire, sopranos, and breaking bad as your frame of reference for why a one season show's characters lack depth should instantly make u go "wait? Maybe I'm judging this too harshly". She was defined by her dad's parenting style, by a traumatic evnt in childhood which is a pretty big deal, by her siblings fuckups and her mom abandoning her. There was a ton of shit there. There are a million cops on television, and other than Kima from the Wire, she might be the best female one there is. Woodrough wasn't defined by being gay. He was defined by living a lie because he was obsessed with being a good man. Marrying a women he shouldn't have because he never loved her. Taking on a case that was far above his pay grade because he wanted to follow orders, sexually repressive because of some old fashioned view on homosexuality. His was a cautionary tale about trying to be a good guy instead of being comfortable in your own skin, and in tune with what you really want out of life. Even if he lived, he'd be trapped in a loveless marriage, having homosexual affairs then going on benders all his life
I'm comparing it against them because you are too. If you're saying they're one of the best in television history (but with the disclaimer that you can't compare it against the majority in television history), there's not much to compare it to really.
By n8 Go To PostI'm comparing it against them because you are too. If you're saying they're one of the best in television history (but with the disclaimer that you can't compare it against the majority in television history), there's not much to compare it to really.
They're better than the vast majority of characters on TV dramas, and the ones that are clear cut better than them, are 5-6 season shows that are the best ever.
Again, the writing was awful at times, the dialogue pretty boring, the pacing bad, the story too convoluted, but the 3 main characters and Woodrough were the best part of the show to me. By far. By the end of it I didn't care who killed casper or whether Tony got away with it, just wanted to see what happened to the main characters
I just don't agree, sorry. Alison Tolman in Fargo was far better last year. Gillian Anderson in the two seasons of The Fall was better. Sarah Lancashire in the one season of Happy Valley, Olivia Colman in the first season of Broadchurch... I don't think McAdams' performance was anything special and I don't think her character was.
Vaughn was hamstrung by ludicrous dialogue, which went hand in hand with his character. Again, Fargo is a good comparison because of its relative length; Lorne Malvo was a far better gangster and character, because of the combination of great writing and great performance. Vaughn was out of his depth and unfortunately saddled with terrible writing.
Vaughn was hamstrung by ludicrous dialogue, which went hand in hand with his character. Again, Fargo is a good comparison because of its relative length; Lorne Malvo was a far better gangster and character, because of the combination of great writing and great performance. Vaughn was out of his depth and unfortunately saddled with terrible writing.
Bezzerides had depth? She was the epitome of an angsty female cop with daddy issues and a tom boy persona.
Sarah Linden from The Killing is a much better example of the sort of archetype that Pizzaman was going for but with the sort of nuanced background that was needed to actually take her seriously.
With that said, McAdams did the best she could. And I feel bad for Vaughn because once Pizzaman realized he had to get on with the plot and stop writing completely for his own ego Frank Semyon actually became a character worth paying attention to and Vaughns dramatic chops really began to shine through.
I've never seen any sort of media more held back by writing than this one. The cinematography, the direction, the acting--it's all superb and held down by a significant degree by a horrific script. And now that I know that Pizzaman plagiarized key aspects of Rust's character, it's hard for me to give him much credit for anything.
Sarah Linden from The Killing is a much better example of the sort of archetype that Pizzaman was going for but with the sort of nuanced background that was needed to actually take her seriously.
With that said, McAdams did the best she could. And I feel bad for Vaughn because once Pizzaman realized he had to get on with the plot and stop writing completely for his own ego Frank Semyon actually became a character worth paying attention to and Vaughns dramatic chops really began to shine through.
I've never seen any sort of media more held back by writing than this one. The cinematography, the direction, the acting--it's all superb and held down by a significant degree by a horrific script. And now that I know that Pizzaman plagiarized key aspects of Rust's character, it's hard for me to give him much credit for anything.
By Dark PhaZe Go To PostBezzerides had depth? She was the epitome of an angsty female cop with daddy issues and a tom boy persona. Sarah Linden from The Killing is a much better example of the sort of archetype that Pizzaman was going for but with the sort of nuanced background that was needed to actually take her seriously. With that said, McAdams did the best she could. And I feel bad for Vaughn because once Pizzaman realized he had to get on with the plot and stop writing completely for his own ego Frank Semyon actually became a character worth paying attention to and Vaughns dramatic chops really began to shine through.I've never seen any sort of media more held back by writing than this one. The cinematography, the direction, the acting--it's all superb and held down by a significant degree by a horrific script. And now that I know that Pizzaman plagiarized key aspects of Rust's character, it's hard for me to give him much credit for anything.
Sarah was the main protagonist in a show that spanned 4 seasons and had no shortage of flaws and crap along with it.
Bezzerides had plenty of depth, as did Ray, as did Frank, and to a less degree Woodrough. Not only did Pizzaman have to flesh out the characters in a far shorter period of time, but he had to without making any one of them the clear cut main character.
Part of the reason that the bad guys and ancillary characters weren't fleshed out, outside of a convoluted plot and a 8 episode universe, was because Pizzaman spent Time developing 3 main characters all at once.
By the end if it you understood why Ani became a cop (her fathers structurless, lawless community being blamed for what happened to her) why she wasn't able to let men in (obvious reasons) but why she also hooked up with every man she worked with (her feeling of pride at being called pretty and attractive - which then led to guilt and regret right after - so she shut them out) you get that she didn't just become a cop to fight bad guys and make sure no other little girl gets raped or that she hooked up a lot out of sexual frustration or the devaluing of sex as a defense mechanism to cope with her child abduction. Those would have been the predictable routes. Some long predictable teary eyed speech about how she made a promise to herself to never let another rapist get away with it. Pizzaman took it in a totally different direction.
Outside of Vaughn's bad dialogue and a convoluted story (perhaps on purpose with the constant panning out over confusing freeway connections), this was an ok to good show. The characters and acting are the best parts and people's criticisms are a bit stretched. Also, as an aside, if I read one more critic use the word trope, I'm going to punch something.
There isn't a unique character archetype or plot line in literature, every thing could be called a gotdamn trope. That's the beauty of being a critic, literally everything can be criticized and you'll sound intelligent if you use fancy enough words
I thought Grantland's summary was pretty on-point:
http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/true-detective-season-2-episode-8-omega-station/
Everything else about this season is essentially nonsense. I don’t mean I didn’t understand what happened — though it’s worth noting that whenever an explainer about a season of television is more critically lauded than the season of television it’s explaining, it’s a pretty clear indication of how messily the story is being told. I mean that this season of True Detective didn’t amount to anything.
There was no exhilaration in any of the last two or three episodes’ info dumps. There was no sense of justice when Ani delivers the whole sordid tale — the vast conspiracy of shadowy conglomerates, local and state officials, various arms of the law, the Russian mob, Mexican cartels, presumptive governors, toxic waste dumping, and L.A.-riot-era diamond heists — to the Los Angeles Times reporter who was once beat up by one of the story’s main characters. I didn’t feel any ache for Frank and Jordan as they role-played being angry at one another, throwing their dumb rings out the stupid door and having several more minutes of their moronic conversation about designs and babies and gray and us. I didn’t even really blink when the second and third of the four main characters of this show were killed.
This was the main issue of this show. Not the how, but the why. Clarity is an overrated component of storytelling. James Ellroy’s The Big Nowhere, Raymond Chandler’s The Big Sleep, and David Peace’s Nineteen Seventy-Seven are three of my favorite crime novels, and I don’t think I could explain their plots with a gun to my head.
http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/true-detective-season-2-episode-8-omega-station/
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostJames Ellroy. But that's essentially like saying every robot movie ever steals from Isaac Asimov.
His famous exchange with Marty is pretty much ripped right from somebody else's shit
http://lovecraftzine.com/2014/08/04/did-the-writer-of-true-detective-plagiarize-thomas-ligotti-and-others/
Mike Davis: You contend that Nic Pizzolatto, the writer/creator of the HBO series, True Detective, appropriated a significant amount of intellectual content and language from The Conspiracy Against the Human Race, a nonfiction book by Thomas Ligotti. You claim that what Pizzolatto didn’t lift whole cloth from that book, he paraphrased—mostly as dialogue for the show’s central character, Rust Cohle. Is there any proof that this is the case?
Jon Padgett: Ample evidence, all of which you can read/see/hear is unmistakably evident below. (Watch the video at the beginning of this article, and/or read the quotes below; the article continues after the quotes.)
COHLE: We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself. We are creatures that should not exist by natural law.
“We know that nature has veered into the supernatural by fabricating a creature that cannot and should not exist by natural law, and yet does.” (CATHR, p.111)
COHLE: … we are things that labor under the illusion of having a ‘self’…each of us programmed with total assurance that we’re each somebody, when in fact everybody is nobody.
“And the worst possible thing we could know — worse than knowing of our descent from a mass of microorganisms — is that we are nobodies not somebodies, puppets not people.” (CATHR, p. 109)
“Everybody is nobody…” (CATHR, p. 199)
“…our captivity in the illusion of a self—even though ’there is no one’ to have this illusion…” (CATHR, p. 107)
“…the illusion of being a somebody among somebodies as well as for the substance we see, or think we see, in the world…” (CATHR, p. 114)
just a snippet
By Dark PhaZe Go To PostHis famous exchange with Marty is pretty much ripped right from somebody else's shithttp://lovecraftzine.com/2014/08/04/did-the-writer-of-true-detective-plagiarize-thomas-ligotti-and-others/just a snippet
Thought it was a referrence to this season. Which had this going for a time:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/11755715/Is-True-Detective-season-2-a-James-Ellroy-rip-off.html
But yeah I remember that one too.
oh yea i give pizzaman all the credit in the world for season 2 being his 100% unique vision lol, hadn't heard about any controversy for s2 plagiarism wise
It looked great. Director John Crowley and his director of photography did a fantastic job of shooting the desert, the forest, the docks, and even the Anaheim train station.
And several of the performances — including, as usual, Rachel McAdams and Colin Farrell — were quite fine.
And here's what I didn't find good in the finale:
Everything else.
"Omega Station" was all the sins of season 2 writ large. It offered long swaths of action that made little sense, followed by awkward exposition dumps. It was self-serious to the point of self-parody. The characters were so sketchily written that there was almost no impact when several of them died. And even having to wrap up a plot so convoluted that Slate's Willa Paskin needed over 4000 words to properly explain it earlier this week, the finale had no business being this long. Almost every scene felt padded in a way designed to give extra weight to characters and plot developments too flimsy to support it, and what was intended as literary crime fiction in the vein of James Ellroy instead played like pulp fiction that had very badly overreached.
http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-trying-to-make-sense-of-the-ridiculous-true-detective-finale
Man I hate to go there but making a woman defined by her past abuse is so trite. Do something new please.
Very complex story. I kind of wonder if works better if you view it Netflix style as a complete binge viewing. For example, there is some reveal there about one of the female characters from the corrupt black cop that sets the boy over the edge. And I 1. Have no idea who the black cop was. 2. No idea who the referenced illegit daughter was in the back half of the story.
What I found interesting about Ani is that she admits to having taken pride in the man finding her pretty and liking her. In the same way that Frank informs Ray that the dark thing he did is something he wanted, there is some disturbing thing in Ani that leads to the disturbing thing done to her. It's impossible to reconcile that. You just painfully live with it. I think it's short sighted to think Ani is being completely defined by what was done to her. She's very much impacted by the disturbing part of her that lead to the darkness. On some level, she was going to be the knife weilding Ani anyways. Judging that element of her in spite of the awful event coinciding with it is difficult to tidy up for the character or viewer.
What I found interesting about Ani is that she admits to having taken pride in the man finding her pretty and liking her. In the same way that Frank informs Ray that the dark thing he did is something he wanted, there is some disturbing thing in Ani that leads to the disturbing thing done to her. It's impossible to reconcile that. You just painfully live with it. I think it's short sighted to think Ani is being completely defined by what was done to her. She's very much impacted by the disturbing part of her that lead to the darkness. On some level, she was going to be the knife weilding Ani anyways. Judging that element of her in spite of the awful event coinciding with it is difficult to tidy up for the character or viewer.
By etiolation Go To Post1. Have no idea who the black cop was. 2. No idea who the referenced illegit daughter was in the back half of the story.
Black cop was part of a group of people including Caspere involved in the stealing of the diamonds back in the story. You see him as the commissioner I believe earlier on. The people they stole it from (they were killed) had 2 kids, the guy who stabbed black dude, and that other girl who was cuffed at the house (secretary to caspere earlier in the season). The girl was a result of the affair Caspere was having with the mom.
At it's core it's not a complicated story, but they just presented it in such a shitty way where you couldn't connect the dots and people to their respected situations. It's a mess
No he wasn't doing any of those things. They were kids when the incident happened. The kids grew up and tracked caspere down. The daughter started working for him as a secetary without him knowing her true identity and confirmed it was Caspere. The brother then killed him
By db Go To PostMan I hate to go there but making a woman defined by her past abuse is so trite. Do something new please.
So was Frank though. He was abused by his dad. And Woodrough's mom was a piece of shit too.
Rust defined by his family's accident. Nic sort of makes everyone a product of past trauma. It's his consistent thing.
By reilo Go To PostSo the girl was Caspere's daughter? Wait, I don't give a fuck.
Black cop said it on the bench in the station when blabbing to Ray, jewelry store mom was having an affair with Caspere. The son got enraged and Stabbed him.
By Omzz Go To PostNo he wasn't doing any of those things. They were kids when the incident happened. The kids grew up and tracked caspere down. The daughter started working for him as a secetary without him knowing her true identity and confirmed it was Caspere. The brother then killed him
I recall the brother speaking of Caspere doing something with his sister that was apparently too heinous for him to directly say.
By etiolation Go To PostI recall the brother speaking of Caspere doing something with his sister that was more heinous than the original killing of their parents.
He said they made her into a whore presumably When she was at the parties. We also know that Caspere wasn't really hooking up with the escort women. He'd watch them do shit with each other or guys. So more likely then not she got in and did some stuff but not directly with Caspere. That's my take anyway.
Don't remember seeing anything like that. The only scene that could possibly be is when Ray saw the guy at the train station?
Edit: ohhhh that. I think i missed that detail
Edit: ohhhh that. I think i missed that detail
By Vahagn Go To PostHe said they made her into a whore presumably When she was at the parties. We also know that Caspere wasn't really hooking up with the escort women. He'd watch them do shit with each other or guys. So more likely then not she got in and did some stuff but not directly with Caspere. That's my take anyway.
Went over the girl's scene again.
She had been working the streets, friend got her into the parties where she came across Caspere. Realized who he was. Dyed her hair, hid her name and identity and got a job through Caspere. When they got into Caspere's sex apartment, the brother realized what she had been doing.
So she had been whoring, but not pimped by Caspere. Unsure what interactions she had with him at the parties or how the apartment made him realize the sister's involvement with the sex parties.
By reilo Go To PostI thought Grantland's summary was pretty on-point:http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/true-detective-season-2-episode-8-omega-station/
I actually thought the first part of Grantland's summary, the part you didn't quote about these being 4 main tortured characters trying to find happiness was a really well written and insightful analysis. Also, the link to the Slate explanation was super helpful. Re-affirmed some things I thought I caught on to as well as filled in some missing pieces.
I still think people have been too harsh on this show, but I've always cared more for well acted characters than plot in shows like this, I think that's why I was one of the few who loved bloodline.
Bloodline was amazing. Mendelssohn and Chandler were so fucking good.
But
I didn't really love any of the performances in this season of True Detective though. I only really cared about Kitshc's and Farrels characters.
The whole 'trying to be a good man' thing with Woodrow and Ray's past made them interesting.
I feel like they didn't do enough with them and spent too much time with this wishy washy plot.
The whole reason why the first season( at least the first 6 episodes) was so well done was because the plot was the back story and Rist and Marty were front and center. I didn't care about who the killer was just only how it would effect the main characters.
This season spent too much time wasted on needlessly convuluting a boring plot.
They missed the mark on Vaughn's character imo. If they spent more time exploring his past like they did in the finale it would have made for a more interesting character. Instead we get these cheesy, boring scenes with his wife that didn't do anything for me.
I only started noticing Ani when she was having those flashback hallucinations.
The second half of the show was entertaining at least but the season a whole was very forgettable imo.
But
I didn't really love any of the performances in this season of True Detective though. I only really cared about Kitshc's and Farrels characters.
The whole 'trying to be a good man' thing with Woodrow and Ray's past made them interesting.
I feel like they didn't do enough with them and spent too much time with this wishy washy plot.
The whole reason why the first season( at least the first 6 episodes) was so well done was because the plot was the back story and Rist and Marty were front and center. I didn't care about who the killer was just only how it would effect the main characters.
This season spent too much time wasted on needlessly convuluting a boring plot.
They missed the mark on Vaughn's character imo. If they spent more time exploring his past like they did in the finale it would have made for a more interesting character. Instead we get these cheesy, boring scenes with his wife that didn't do anything for me.
I only started noticing Ani when she was having those flashback hallucinations.
The second half of the show was entertaining at least but the season a whole was very forgettable imo.