By Fenderputty Go To PostNah. To some extent I think this is healthy. Bernie did drag the party platform left for example. The arguments just need to stop when it comes time to vote.
This was my opinion during the primaries. Result didn't match up, though.
By Oersted Go To PostPutting aside that you never actually defended your centrist position and simply continue to make sweeping statements about Dems, I do kinda agree. Thing is, we learned different things out of it. Your thing is attack Democrats. Mine is noticing that Republicans are fucking the USA and the world over. The compromise I'm willing to accept is 12 dollars for now. Yours is watching the world getting fucked over because 12 dollars ain't enough......when did that happen? lol
and guys, you can realize the GOP is shit and want to do the dems to better in the same breath, its not some inhuman feat. the gop being a shitshow isn't breaking news - the dems being utterly directionless at every level kinda is though
also, its very much natural to be more critical of something you're invested in.
What is a centrist dem? What policy proposals / support merits the term? I feel like Gondo thinks I'm his enemy but my straight dem ticket parents think I'm a communist.
Going to bat for Bernie voters again here lol
They actually showed up in larger percentages to vote for Clinton than I think Clinton voters did for Obama during 2008. What lost us 2016 wasn't the Bernie voter. Or the Jill Stein voter, though if you voted for Stein I'm gonna give you side eye. It was mostly the wwc in the rust belt and it was for mostly racial reasons.
By ClownsAreATen Go To PostThis was my opinion during the primaries. Result didn't match up, though.
Going to bat for Bernie voters again here lol
They actually showed up in larger percentages to vote for Clinton than I think Clinton voters did for Obama during 2008. What lost us 2016 wasn't the Bernie voter. Or the Jill Stein voter, though if you voted for Stein I'm gonna give you side eye. It was mostly the wwc in the rust belt and it was for mostly racial reasons.
By Fenderputty Go To PostWhat is a centrist dem? What policy proposals / support merits the term? I feel like Gondo thinks I'm his enemy but my straight dem ticket parents think I'm a communist.
Exactly. It’s almost like anything short of seizing the means of production is morally bankrupt.
The whole centrist/leftist crap is part of the problem because it doesn't address the policies people actually want to see implemented or see gone. The dems whole clusterfuck in a nutshell. Be critical enough of the dems and you get labeled some ol' shit. Stop trying to pinpoint where a person is on a compass and talk policy or failed ass policy. Much of dem policy has been conservative and sexist/racist. Can't just shy away from it.
By DY_nasty Go To Post"win" is subjective
i might even be able to rationalize another presidential L at this rate
Hard to rationalize that away when John Roberts becomes the third most liberal member of the court tho.
Stratifying the party is what allows Republicans to win in the first place. No one's definition of leftist or centrist ever matches up.
That's why talking about policy is what should matter, but not enough people wanna be on that wave.
That's why talking about policy is what should matter, but not enough people wanna be on that wave.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostHard to rationalize that away when John Roberts becomes the third most liberal member of the court tho.I still don't think people are mad enough for any significant popular change to occur. World hasn't burned enough.
By DY_nasty Go To Posti'm pretty much a centrist dem i guess, but its an undefined element imo
We're all shades of gray, man. I like guns lol. You're in the service and have more conservative views on immigration and foreign relations.
I don't see how supporting a public option, expanding subsidies and working towards a functional multiplayer system to achieve UHC makes me a "centrist" but whatever I guess.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostExactly. It’s almost like anything short of seizing the means of production is morally bankrupt.
This is pretty much how I view each of Gondo's posts.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostThe whole centrist/leftist crap is part of the problem because it doesn't address the policies people actually want to see implemented or see gone. The dems whole clusterfuck in a nutshell. Be critical enough of the dems and you get labeled some ol' shit. Stop trying to pinpoint where a person is on a compass and talk policy or failed ass policy. Much of dem policy has been conservative and sexist/racist. Can't just shy away from it.
All I want to know is did you vote for Hillary Clinton in the 2016 general election.
Be as critical as you want of the Democratic party. Just don't let even worse win. Because that was the choice. There was what you might not fully agree with, versus what is completely objectionable.
For people who did not vote for Hillary Clinton in November (that's the Jill Stein voter or people that stayed home), I have no time for you. You helped make Donald Trump the 45th POTUS.
the fact that people had to cringe and force themselves to vote for hillary in opposition to trump is a huge, huge problem tho
its never gonna get addressed adequately either at this rate
damned russians
its never gonna get addressed adequately either at this rate
damned russians
By Trey Go To PostStratifying the party is what allows Republicans to win in the first place. No one's definition of leftist or centrist ever matches up.
That's why talking about policy is what should matter, but not enough people wanna be on that wave.
I've tried talking policy with Gondo, and just did with Noid. How do you combat a resistance to intellectual debate? Populism is more easily clung to.
"Single payer is a must!!!"
"Actually it isn't. UHC is a must. The means in which we get there aren't. There are various models that mix nationalized healthcare with for pfofit healthcare to great success. They just employ cost control measures and .... "
"DID I STUTTER MOTHERFUCKER! SINGLE PAYER OR BUST"
By Randolph Freelander Go To PostAll I want to know is did you vote for Hillary Clinton in the 2016 general election.The fact that you feel compelled to ask me that is why dems will continue to be not shit. Let's not talk about failed policies. Where are you on the compass? Did you vote for Hillary tho? Fuck this line of discussion right now.
Be as critical as you want of the Democratic party. Just don't let even worse win. Because that was the choice. There was what you might not fully agree with, versus what is completely objectionable.
For people who did not vote for Hillary Clinton in November (that's the Jill Stein voter or people that stayed home), I have no time for you. You helped make Donald Trump the 45th POTUS.
By DY_nasty Go To PostI still don't think people are mad enough for any significant popular change to occur. World hasn't burned enough.I think people are plenty mad, but they don't have any vectors to express their anger in politically meaningful ways. The Dems could capitalize on this with populist rhetoric imo, but the party establishment loves the large donor class too much. Most Dem politicians aspire to win the favor of Wall Street and Silicon Valley, which is a huge problem and a massive disconnect with the sentiments of the average American.
Given the lack of stake in the system or redress for their (mostly valid) complaints, people turn to whatever is left: drugs, drinking, consumption, and politics based on grievance. If they're not gonna make a decent wage or be able to retire, at least they can take it out on the people who piss them off. That was basically Trump's entire appeal.
Populism is the reason a little less than half the country is fine with succumbing to fascist ideology. It's the reason people don't care about whether Trump colluded with a foreign nation. It's the reason we have a sexual assaulter in the office while he hypocritically jumps on the Harvey W bandwagon hate.
Populism is scary as fuck and I loathe it.
Populism is scary as fuck and I loathe it.
By Fenderputty Go To PostI've tried talking policy with Gondo, and just did with Noid. How do you combat a resistance to intellectual debate? Populism is more easily clung to.
"Single payer is a must!!!"
"Actually it isn't. UHC is a must. The means in which we get there aren't. There are various models that mix nationalized healthcare with for pfofit healthcare to great success. They just employ cost control measures and …. "
"DID I STUTTER MOTHERFUCKER! SINGLE PAYER OR BUST"
populism to a degree wins, and you clearly can't do shit if you're losing all over the rest of the field
By Fenderputty Go To PostPopulism is the reason a little less than half the country is fine with succumbing to fascist ideology. It's the reason people don't care about whether Trump colluded with a foreign nation. It's the reason we have a sexual assaulter in the office while he hypocritically jumps on the Harvey W bandwagon hate.but it works
Populism is scary as fuck and I loathe it.
no point in acting like trump is the only person to gain off of it, barack and his 'golden age' are just as guilty of populist politicking
if the dems are gonna do all this fence riding and lose anyways, may as well win and work it out after elections
By DY_nasty Go To Postpopulism to a degree wins, and you clearly can't do shit if you're losing all over the rest of the field
but it works
no point in acting like trump is the only person to gain off of it, barack and his 'golden age' are just as guilty of populist politicking
if the dems are gonna do all this fence riding and lose anyways, may as well win and work it out after elections
I definitely don't disagree here, but I still find it to be scary as fuck. We can't break down internal barrier and talk issues if all people care about is populist rhetoric.
Wish dems could just be the rightist party and we could have a left but this country is just set to slippery slope chicken little mode that we'll suddenly slide on into a Stalinist or Maoist regime if any socialism beyond what we have rears its head.
By Fenderputty Go To PostI definitely don't disagree here, but I still find it to be scary as fuck. We can't break down internal barrier and talk issues if all people care about is populist rhetoric.well they could at least work on a few things, functionally
"when they go low, we go high" doesn't do shit. when they go low, we go home and wait until the next election cycle and do our best to distance and dismiss the people who we let down is the actual motto
By DY_nasty Go To Postwell they could at least work on a few things, functionallyMaybe if we chase the right off a cliff it will work out this time. You don't know.
"when they go low, we go high" doesn't do shit. when they go low, we go home and wait until the next election cycle and do our best to distance and dismiss the people who we let down is the actual motto
By DY_nasty Go To PostI still don't think people are mad enough for any significant popular change to occur. World hasn't burned enough.
This is a true fact. If they were, we'd be hearing about people getting arrested for protesting, all of the time now. Nope.
NFL owners are basically calling their players slaves, and nada. Players are on the field with smiling faces and while the views are down, the NFL is still making bank.
Hell, the artists aren't even a fifth as mad as artists were during the Harlem Renaissance.
Fox journalists are whining about being used as propaganda, instead of quitting.
So called "leftist" pundits calling Kelly's racist civil war nonsense, "controversial" instead of what it actually is.
The list goes on.
By Fenderputty Go To PostPopulism is the reason a little less than half the country is fine with succumbing to fascist ideology. It's the reason people don't care about whether Trump colluded with a foreign nation. It's the reason we have a sexual assaulter in the office while he hypocritically jumps on the Harvey W bandwagon hate.
Populism is scary as fuck and I loathe it.
I loathe it as well, but those are the cards that we were dealt (by facebook, twitter, and google), and the dems can't even capitalize on that. :/
By Random Ass Username Go To PostMaybe if we chase the right off a cliff it will work out this time. .
They'll follow a pretty blonde anywhere that isn't mainstream morning television.
By DY_nasty Go To Postwell they could at least work on a few things, functionally
"when they go low, we go high" doesn't do shit. when they go low, we go home and wait until the next election cycle and do our best to distance and dismiss the people who we let down is the actual motto
Absolutely. Dems and liberals need to stop treating “discourse” and “debate” with the Right as something that’s on the level.
By Fenderputty Go To PostI've tried talking policy with Gondo, and just did with Noid. How do you combat a resistance to intellectual debate? Populism is more easily clung to.We mainly disagree on tactics. But to say that I resist intellectual debate is extremely condescending.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostThe fact that you feel compelled to ask me that is why dems will continue to be not shit. Let's not talk about failed policies. Where are you on the compass? Did you vote for Hillary tho? Fuck this line of discussion right now.
That was a rhetorical you, by the way, not particularly specific.
There's simply two camps of people that I have an everlasting cornucopia of loathing for after 2016: The 81% of white evangelicals that voted for Donald Trump, and the people that stayed home, including the majority of millennials.
For those on the left not satisfied with Hillary Clinton and the Democratic platform for 2016, I don't know what to tell them. It was far more progressive than any other I've experienced, at the very least, and the alternate choice was someone who wanted to tear down everything Obama did just because Obama was the one that did it, and a party that is happy to let him. Who, oh by the way, was already exhibiting authoritarian tendencies during the campaign and openly ran on bigotry and exclusion.
So for people that would have preferred the Democratic platform as opposed to the GOP's, even as an imperfect choice, and didn't vote? Nope. Can't even begin to pretend to be OK with that. A phrase I kind of recoil at, but fits, is you can't let perfect be the enemy of good. Move the ball down the field.
By KingGondo Go To PostWe mainly disagree on tactics. But to say that I resist intellectual debate is extremely condescending.
You resisted and resorted to calling me selfish!!!
By Fenderputty Go To PostYou resisted and resorted to calling me selfish!!!Didn't that have to do with you getting upset at the prospect of your Kaiser plan being changed, even if it benefitted millions of other Americans?
By KingGondo Go To PostDidn't that have to do with you getting upset at the prospect of your Kaiser plan being changed, even if it benefitted millions of other Americans?
Sure, but that's a tactic we disagreed on. I would rather we pursue a multiplayer system to avoid total chaos in transition out this garbage into UHC. I feel it's the surest bet in not only achieving the goal politically but also with the least harm economically while transitioning. In a multiplayer system, you and everyone else could have affordable Kaiser too!
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostGondo do you have kids? Just curious.No
By Random Ass Username Go To PostStop even using Bernie as a metric period. I couldn't give a fuck about dude. I am frequently displeased with a party that only stands on "not as awful" as the counterpart. Meanwhile people are still SOL due to the lack of buttressing the democrats did to many a thing when they actually held majorities. Probably because they're a bunch of wallstreet warhawk whores too.
Uh, about that
If democrats didn't pass any meaningful legislation, what's all this consumer and environmental protection that Trump is rolling back?
By Randolph Freelander Go To Post
Bush cuts 2.0 here we go
By Sho_Nuff82 Go To PostUh, about that
If democrats didn't pass any meaningful legislation, what's all this consumer and environmental protection that Trump is rolling back?
Yeah, it sounds more like people are mad that the Republicans are even able to do these rollbacks... Which they can do because it's a democracy.
They can do it just as easily to any other leftist policy. And vice versa.
Beyond that though, I agree the Dems need to stop holding back and be the party of the people. Yeah, there are many non-coastal people that don't like or need the same stuff as coastal folks, but that can be addressed with specificity.
I do love seeing people wonder why there isn't a full on left party with any momentum. It may be related to why those same folks get mad about the donors. (they don't got the funds/political networking, and don't operate in a way to gain them)
Regulations passed after a financial crisis that the Dems themselves assisted in with continued financial deregulation during the Clinton era. So again, what are we talking about here?
By Random Ass Username Go To PostRegulations passed after a financial crisis that the Dems themselves assisted in with continued financial deregulation during the Clinton era. So again, what are we talking about here?
We could have ran somone more left of Bill Clinton and just lost. Dems aren't perfect, but you're removing historical context here in a disingenuous way. Reaganomics was still very much s thing and so was tough on crime.
I'm not here to talk about what was justified or not justified but let's not play stupid about fiscal policies that the dems themselves enacted and crises they also contributed to with their bullshit.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostI'm not here to talk about what was justified or not justified but let's not play stupid about fiscal policies that the dems themselves enacted and crises they also contributed to with their bullshit.
I'm pointing out that the political climate at the time would have never produced a democratic president who had more leftist fiscal policy. We're always given two choices that are the result of the political climate at the time. The 90's was not a good climate for liberalism nationally. Clinton was the result.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostRegulations passed after a financial crisis that the Dems themselves assisted in with continued financial deregulation during the Clinton era. So again, what are we talking about here?
Put simply, they were part of the problem, recognized their mistakes, found at least one consumer-friendly solution that would actually pass with votes, and moved to the left of previous policy.
That's how governance works. Or at least, how it's supposed to work. It's a push and pull constantly, and the fight never ends. Any time one party stops pulling (and progressives have a tendency to do this whenever the economy is doing well), the other side pushes right back to where they were. Which then makes it harder the next time you want to move left.
The democrats envisioned a world where Wild West health care markets -> ACA -> Universal coverage -> single payer option -> single payer universal coverage.
It takes time and discipline to get from that first step to the last. We had dozens of congressional challenges just getting from step one to step two. You have to show skeptics that the financial sting won't be that painful, and that the end goal - more grateful, healthy citizens - is a clear net good.
Hillary proposed moving further left of the ACA. Trump (and his RNC opponents) proposed going back to step 1. We are now at constant risk of going back to step 1, because a sizeable amount of progressives felt that millions of people getting access to decent health plans wasn't good enough or fast enough for their liking.
The $12 vs $15 minimum wage analogy above is perfect. "I'd rather people live the next 4 years at $8/hr rather than compromise on my standards...and then we'll propose $17/hr, raise taxes to 1999 levels, and rip away all the coal subsidies the RNC just implemented!" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics works.
By TheHunter Go To PostOh Jesus you aren't gonna get your perfect Unicorn candidate guys.
Man up and do the right thing.
#facts
By TheHunter Go To PostOh Jesus you aren't gonna get your perfect Unicorn candidate guys.Yeah, that's the democratic platform as a whole 😂
Man up and do the right thing.
Unless he means the "immigration" policy of enslaving people and bringing them here against their will...
By Randolph Freelander Go To PostIf we had only built a wall in the middle of the Atlantic, we'd have been free from
Unless he means the "immigration" policy of enslaving people and bringing them here against their will…
For anyone that thinks 2018 or 2020 is gonna be a change for the better, please link to the last two pages.
By RobNBanks Go To PostFor anyone that thinks 2018 or 2020 is gonna be a change for the better, please link to the last two pages.Are you thinking the left is bickering too much or something? Why do you say that?