By HasphatsAnts Go To PostAh so you qualify for premium subsidies. That’s good to hear.If I didn't get any subsidies, I literally wouldn't be able to afford it. (It's $260 a month through my work for bad insurance. No thanks.) When it told me that I qualified for such a ridiculous credit, I was like, this doesn't seem right, I make too much money for that. No, the premium for a silver plan went up 91%.
Somehow no one (everyone) bothered to point out to these geniuses that cutting CSR payments directly leads to government giving out more tax credits on the backend. I wonder why!
I don't smoke, I'm sick like twice a year, my health needs are qualified as "low usage" so I can't even imagine how much they went up for folks in places where the health care costs are so much higher.
https://amp.thedailybeast.com/house-democrats-release-all-known-russian-troll-farm-facebook-ads-and-twitter-accounts
Daily Beast article on the garbage Russia was spreading via social media ads
Daily Beast article on the garbage Russia was spreading via social media ads
By rodeoclown Go To PostIf I didn't get any subsidies, I literally wouldn't be able to afford it. (It's $260 a month through my work for bad insurance. No thanks.) When it told me that I qualified for such a ridiculous credit, I was like, this doesn't seem right, I make too much money for that. No, the premium for a silver plan went up 91%.
I don't smoke, I'm sick like twice a year, my health needs are qualified as "low usage" so I can't even imagine how much they went up for folks in places where the health care costs are so much higher.
Now imagine if you barely missed qualifying for premium subsidies. $75,000 household income for 2 people? Tough cookies.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostThen come up with your own report that's better researched and better argued than theirs. That's how politics work.Imagine thinking Third Way is anything more than useless trash lmao
What I'm tired of is rhetoric without the necessary work behind them.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostWhat you should be doing is pressuring the Berniecrats to do better than just yell and say you’re wrong without ever offering well thought out policy alternatives.Is this a joke?
By Enter The Noid Go To PostIs this a joke?
Read further down the thread and come to your own conclusion!
By Fenderputty Go To PostTo be fair to the berniecrats of the party, they have offered policy proposals. They're just unwilling to budge and fail to acknowledge the basic similarity between the two divisions in the democratic party. Like single payer is an option. So is a public option, expansion of subsidies and cost controls. Free college is an option. So is some labor in a trade for tuition. $15 and hour minimum wage is an option. So is $12 with leaving larger increases up to states who can. If you vary from their policy at all, you're cast into the "aint shit" crowd and treated like you're a republican.Yeah because all those things are the absolute bare minimum. People should be making more than 15 dollars an hour. Anything less than single payer will not address our absolute crisis of a healthcare system.
Dems can either bend the knee or get the hell out of the way.
By Enter The Noid Go To PostYeah because all those things are the absolute bare minimum. People should be making more than 15 dollars an hour. Anything less than single payer will not address our absolute crisis of a healthcare system.
Dems can either bend the knee or get the hell out of the way.
A. $15 an hour wage floor isn't feasible across the country. Larger city centers sure. Not bumble fuck Alabama. I challenge you to find one economist who thinks $15+ is where the floor should be. $15 an hour is a catch phrase that sounds good so peeps like you can harp on bending the knee without giving one ounce of rational thought into the topic.
B. There's plenty of multi payer systems in the world which function better than ours and compare to other single payers systems. Germany, Japan etc etc. Single payer isn't the only way to efficient UHC. You berniecrats sure think it is though, and as such fall back on requesting we bend the knee while you sound ignorant as all hell.
Any more topics you want to cover?
By Fenderputty Go To PostA. $15 an hour wage floor isn't feasible across the country. Larger city centers sure. Not bumble fuck Alabama. I challenge you to find one economist who thinks $15+ is where the floor should be. $15 an hour is a catch phrase that sounds good so peeps like you can harp on bending the knee without giving one ounce of rational thought into the topic.
B. There's plenty of multi payer systems in the world which function better than ours and compare to other single payers systems. Germany, Japan etc etc. Single payer isn't the only way to efficient UHC. You berniecrats sure think it is though, and as such fall back on requesting we bend the knee while you sound ignorant as all hell.
Any more topics you want to cover?
A: well it sure as hell better be feasible because anything else is unacceptable
B: nah
I also reject this "berniecrat" label because it implies I think the Democrats are anything but a useless flaming trash pile.
"berniecrat" :/
i mean.... the thing is, if bernie wasn't the last nationally witnessed democrat with a spine on so many issues, then he wouldn't be so infamous
15 bucks an hour everywhere isn't real though. neither is UHC
but neither is peace in the middle east, a transparent white house, or a wall. can't hate the guy for being popular(ist)
i mean.... the thing is, if bernie wasn't the last nationally witnessed democrat with a spine on so many issues, then he wouldn't be so infamous
15 bucks an hour everywhere isn't real though. neither is UHC
but neither is peace in the middle east, a transparent white house, or a wall. can't hate the guy for being popular(ist)
By Fenderputty Go To PostRead further down the thread and come to your own conclusion!I'm curious to see what they'll say when the CBO they praised so much during ACHA/BCRA comes back with a half trillion dollar budget hole after they score Sanders' plan. Apart from Sherrod Brown, no one currently on his side of the debate inspires much confidence in me that they'll be able to defend the substance of the proposal.
By DY_nasty Go To Post"berniecrat" :/I do have a problem with it because for every voter who's clued in on the rhetoric there are also voters who genuinely expect politicians to deliver $15 an hour, and UHC, and free higher education for all. And falling short of that is a bad outcome. period.
i mean…. the thing is, if bernie wasn't the last nationally witnessed democrat with a spine on so many issues, then he wouldn't be so infamous
15 bucks an hour everywhere isn't real though. neither is UHC
but neither is peace in the middle east, a transparent white house, or a wall. can't hate the guy for being popular(ist)
Sometimes folks actually do need to be satisfied with a movement in the right direction. $12 is a far cry better than $7.25.
While Berniecrats(lel) attack Democrats because 15 Dollars ain't enough, the current administration is busy abolishing worker rights and protections.
What is the term I'm looking for?
Oh right, useful idiots.
Exactly
What is the term I'm looking for?
Oh right, useful idiots.
By Randolph Freelander Go To PostSometimes folks actually do need to be satisfied with a movement in the right direction. $12 is a far cry better than $7.25.
Exactly
By Enter The Noid Go To PostA: well it sure as hell better be feasible because anything else is unacceptable
B: nah
I also reject this "berniecrat" label because it implies I think the Democrats are anything but a useless flaming trash pile.
A. So you have no actual economics to back your claim up you just demand that it happen. Yup.
B. Thanks for proving my point twice!
By DY_nasty Go To Post"berniecrat" :/
BTW ... I didn't think Berniecrat was offensive. I thought it was just a term used to describe that faction of the democratic party. I stopped using Berniebro because I understand it became a pejorative. If Berniecrat is offensive I'll swap to berniefaction or some shit. I wasn't intending for it's use to be a pejorative.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostI'm curious to see what they'll say when the CBO they praised so much during ACHA/BCRA comes back with a half trillion dollar budget hole after they score Sanders' plan. Apart from Sherrod Brown, no one currently on his side of the debate inspires much confidence in me that they'll be able to defend the substance of the proposal.
I get the concept of a negotiating starting point., but this is being used as a litmus test for party purists. There's a reason it's missing all the important bits.
Can we not throw around names and insults at folks genuinely disillusioned with the continued conservative light pile of dem shit we're forced to routinely accept because a viable left isn't in the picture.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostCan we not throw around names and insults at folks genuinely disillusioned with the continued conservative light pile of dem shit we're forced to routinely accept because a viable left isn't in the picture.
By Fenderputty Go To PostBTW … I didn't think Berniecrat was offensive. I thought it was just a term used to describe that faction of the democratic party. I stopped using Berniebro because I understand it became a pejorative. If Berniecrat is offensive I'll swap to berniefaction or some shit. I wasn't intending for it's use to be a pejorative..
.
Stop even using Bernie as a metric period. I couldn't give a fuck about dude. I am frequently displeased with a party that only stands on "not as awful" as the counterpart. Meanwhile people are still SOL due to the lack of buttressing the democrats did to many a thing when they actually held majorities. Probably because they're a bunch of wallstreet warhawk whores too.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostCan we not throw around names and insults at folks…. the continued conservative light pile of dem shit
Pick one?
By Random Ass Username Go To PostStop even using Bernie as a metric period. .How you gonna do that when the leftist faction does the same?
By Random Ass Username Go To PostIt's not an insult to say democrats are center right and people are fooling themselves still.
I guess it's not offensive. Depending on the scale you're using it isn't accurate. 2016 was the most liberal platform every by a dem (in large party thanks to Bernie).
What leftist faction where? Please. Most people I run into are fairly conservative. Country is so far right people think just because they're not overtly racist that means they're left by some kind of degree.
I'm seeing plenty of people with roses next to their twitter handles using the term Berniecrat to describe themselves?
By Oersted Go To PostWhile Berniecrats(lel) attack Democrats because 15 Dollars ain't enough, the current administration is busy abolishing worker rights and protections.Those to the left of the Democratic party want to win, and they think the Dems moving to the left is the way to do it.
What is the term I'm looking for?
Oh right, useful idiots.
There will never be a "good time" to hash out these policy debates on the left. Anything other than going along with the status quo party line is seen as betrayal.
And as the last 20 years have shown, the Dems don't need interference from the left to lose elections. They're pretty damn good at that already.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostWhat leftist faction where? .
Were you around for 2016?
Was that supposed to a real reply? Yeah there's total political capital there that's why Bernie got the ticket. Oh wait.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostWas that supposed to a real reply? Yeah there's total political capital there that's why Bernie got the ticket. Oh wait.
Who said the faction had political capital? You're asking if that faction exists while two posters in here are a part of that faction. If redblaster ever shows up it's three.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostIt's not an insult to say democrats are center right and people are fooling themselves still.
Deeply respectful and well argued.
Putting that aside, learn to compromise. Progress has been made under Obama, while the current administration is laserfocused on destroying every single progress made.
Healthcare is getting destroyed while you are busy gettting into fights with Dems because 15 dollars is not enough.
I know the left was tradionally always more focussed on destroying itself than fighting the enemy, but it got to a point where it is outright comical.
15 dollars isn't enough for many to pay rents. But its cool. Keep shitting on folks trying to live because "now's not the time" and "you can't push for policy now" if ever really. When's the time? When's the appropriate time to demand better? Better wait for the comfortable people who aren't on the street to tell us.
By Random Ass Username Go To Post15 dollars isn't enough for many to pay rents. But its cool. Keep shitting on folks trying to live because "now's not the time" and "you can't push for policy now" if ever really. When's the time? When's the appropriate time to demand better? Better wait for the comfortable people who aren't on the street to tell us.
It's not enough for some areas but too much for others. That's the point!!!!! A wage floor is a floor. It's a baseline for the nation. You can't expect a place like WV to absorb such an increase while you can expect a place like CA to do so. That's why you set the floor at a reasonable rate. You then let states like CA who can absorb a higher floor make that decision for themselves. A $15 an hour floor is currently higher than the median hourly wage in WV
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_wv.htm
In all honesty ... I hate wage floors. I would rather have a reverse income tax or a guaranteed income and then let the market figure out the rest.
By Random Ass Username Go To Post15 dollars isn't enough for many to pay rents. But its cool. Keep shitting on folks trying to live because "now's not the time" and "you can't push for policy now" if ever really. When's the time? When's the appropriate time to demand better? Better wait for the comfortable people who aren't on the street to tell us.
Stop that disingenious crap, I never said that. I never said there is a wrong time, I said learn to compromise and to add, learn politics. 12 Dollars is a compromise, a conservative light pile of dem shit and a start.
I think cost of living varies so much between different parts of the country that a flat minimum everywhere is not going to go well. It should be tied to cost of living in the the area somehow and updated every so often. Should still result in higher minimum wage everywhere.
By Oersted Go To PostDeeply respectful and well argued.Calls to "compromise" are always from the Democrats to leftists. Centrist Democrats would rather compromise with Republicans than the left wing of their own party. They think that voters will see that they're the "reasonable" party and reward them, and then they wonder why they fucking lose.
Putting that aside, learn to compromise. Progress has been made under Obama, while the current administration is laserfocused on destroying every single progress made.
Healthcare is getting destroyed while you are busy gettting into fights with Dems because 15 dollars is not enough.
I know the left was tradionally always more focussed on destroying itself than fighting the enemy, but it got to a point where it is outright comical.
In reality: the worldviews represented on the left and right are oppositional, which is why centrism and "compromise" are so poisonous and dangerous. The appearance of civility and reason are valued above actual left policies and ideologies in the Democratic Party. I am not going to go to bat for Democrats I disagree with, especially when they have shown themselves to be so inept anyways.
I consider centrist Dems to be political enemies. They aren't part of the left in any meaningful way.
P.S. If the great accomplishments of Obama are so precarious now, how great were they really? If their greatness was so apparent, surely it wouldn't be that easy to run campaigns centered around attacking them? We came within a hair of Obamacare being repealed, and the Iran deal is possibly going to be scuttled as well (with the help of Democrats, btw). Incrementalism is fragile.
To be clear: I want Democrats to win. But I don't think they're remotely on the right track to do that at the moment, which is why we're having this discussion.
It'd never happen but there also needs to be a serious look at how we treat property and housing. With all these shortages across the nation and foreign investors basically buying shit up and leaving it vacant or jacking up the rent or making them airb&bs, somethings gotta give. But who is seriously addressing this? The dems? lol.
By KingGondo Go To PostCalls to "compromise" are always from the Democrats to leftists. Centrist Democrats would rather compromise with Republicans than the left wing of their own party. They think that voters will see that they're the "reasonable" party and reward them, and then they wonder why they fucking lose.
By KingGondo Go To PostCalls to "compromise" are always from the Democrats to leftists. Centrist Democrats would rather compromise with Republicans than the left wing of their own party. They think that voters will see that they're the "reasonable" party and reward them, and then they wonder why they fucking lose.
In reality: the worldviews represented on the left and right are oppositional, which is why centrism and "compromise" are so poisonous and dangerous. The appearance of civility and reason are valued above actual left policies and ideologies in the Democratic Party. I am not going to go to bat for Democrats I disagree with, especially when they have shown themselves to be so inept anyways.
I consider centrist Dems to be political enemies. They aren't part of the left in any meaningful way.
P.S. If the great accomplishments of Obama are so precarious now, how great were they really? If their greatness was so apparent, surely it wouldn't be that easy to run campaigns centered around attacking them? We came within a hair of Obamacare being repealed, and the Iran deal is possibly going to be scuttled as well (with the help of Democrats, btw). Incrementalism is fragile.
To be clear: I want Democrats to win. But I don't think they're remotely on the right track to do that at the moment, which is why we're having this discussion.
You completely twisted what I said. I'm mildly impressed and recommend you to throw your preconceived notions over board and read again.
There hasn't been a solid effort by dems to tackle a lot of systemic problems and financial issues since the Great Society. In fact they were pretty content with a bunch of institutionalized jim crow and letting the Hyde Amendment screw over poor women/WoC.
I see the democratic civil war has begun again
I'm going to stay off on the sidelines and pretend to be better than you all by saying both sides are bad
I'm going to stay off on the sidelines and pretend to be better than you all by saying both sides are bad
By Random Ass Username Go To PostThere hasn't been a solid effort by dems to tackle a lot of systemic problems and financial issues since the Great Society. In fact they were pretty content with a bunch of institutionalized jim crow and letting the Hyde Amendment screw over poor women/WoC.
Dude, I'm neither a democrat nor a centrist like you. I simply have priorities. Your and my priority is to stop the current destruction. In that regard, we are not so different. Also, 12 dollars is not enough, in my and your opinion. I'm simply able to see it as what it is. A start.
By Kibner Go To PostI think cost of living varies so much between different parts of the country that a flat minimum everywhere is not going to go well. It should be tied to cost of living in the the area somehow and updated every so often. Should still result in higher minimum wage everywhere.
Wage floors are shit. Negative income tax or Garaunteed wages are the only way to go. You can get rid of floors to. Want to see if someone will flip burgers for 2$ an hour? Go for it and watch everyone be happy with their GMI. It might actually let a labor market function like a market where the laborer has a choice.
Interestingly enough the negative income tax is a Friedman concept, just one conservatives love to ignore. Similar to open border policy.
By ClownsAreATen Go To PostI see the democratic civil war has begun again
I'm going to stay off on the sidelines and pretend to be better than you all by saying both sides are bad
Nah. To some extent I think this is healthy. Bernie did drag the party platform left for example. The arguments just need to stop when it comes time to vote.
By Oersted Go To PostDude, I'm neither a democrat nor a centrist like you. I simply have priorities. Your and my priority is to stop the current destruction. In that regard, we are not so different. Also, 12 dollars is not enough, in my and your opinion. I'm simply able to see it as what it is. A start.I don't know what to even make of this. The point is that the democrats have been awful allies and even imposed their own subjugation of entire populations they pretend(ed) to serve or let heinous shit slide year after year after year. This is not even getting into their continued corporatism and imperialist policies abroad.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostI don't know what to even make of this. The point is that the democrats have been awful allies and even imposed their own subjugation of entire populations they pretend(ed) to serve or let heinous shit slide year after year after year. This is not even getting into their continued corporatism and imperialist policies abroad.Not that I disagree but can you be a tiny bit more specific than paint with such a broad brush?
By KingGondo Go To PostI consider centrist Dems to be political enemies.
By KingGondo Go To PostTo be clear: I want Democrats to win.
You gotta pick one, my dude.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostI don't know what to even make of this. The point is that the democrats have been awful allies and even imposed their own subjugation of entire populations they pretend(ed) to serve or let heinous shit slide year after year after year. .
Part of the problem is that racism exists within the dem coalition too. Racism is a motherfucker.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostYou gotta pick one, my dude.
He doesn't think he needs centrists to win.
In a few years, I hope we see current centrist Dems writing column after column about how "they didn't leave the party, the party left them." Something akin to what's happening with Labour in the UK.
People like Third Way are well-funded movements intended to reinforce the idea that "socially liberal and fiscally conservative" is something more than an empty statement with negative real world consequences. It's the "I like the house, but it would be nice if we could change the drapes" of political ideologies.
Centrist Dems can go ahead and be "independents" or just become Republicans. That's what will happen if the Democratic party comes to its senses.
People like Third Way are well-funded movements intended to reinforce the idea that "socially liberal and fiscally conservative" is something more than an empty statement with negative real world consequences. It's the "I like the house, but it would be nice if we could change the drapes" of political ideologies.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostYou gotta pick one, my dude.Nah. They're basically ok with the status quo, which is plainly unacceptable.
Centrist Dems can go ahead and be "independents" or just become Republicans. That's what will happen if the Democratic party comes to its senses.
Three Strikes. Letting the Hyde Amendment roll on resulting in about a million unwanted pregnancies mostly impacting poor WoC. DADT. Turning their back on unions. Financial deregulation especially of banking institutions and leveraging. Imperialist shenanigans abroad. Consolidating more power in the executive which is wonderful considering who's in there now. The Iraq War. The Pat Act. Expansion of the Pat Act under Obama.
By HasphatsAnts Go To PostYou gotta pick one, my dude."win" is subjective
i might even be able to rationalize another presidential L at this rate
By Random Ass Username Go To PostI don't know what to even make of this. The point is that the democrats have been awful allies and even imposed their own subjugation of entire populations they pretend(ed) to serve or let heinous shit slide year after year after year. This is not even getting into their continued corporatism and imperialist policies abroad.
Putting aside that you never actually defended your centrist position and simply continue to make sweeping statements about Dems, I do kinda agree. Thing is, we learned different things out of it. Your thing is attack Democrats. Mine is noticing that Republicans are fucking the USA and the world over. The compromise I'm willing to accept is 12 dollars for now. Yours is watching the world getting fucked over because 12 dollars ain't enough.