By Dark PhaZeI feel like Lowry has been complete shit literally the moment he got the nod as an all-star starterThe Beiber groupies got to him.
The GM discussion is just going in circles.
I'll just disagree because it's never going to come to any consensus.
I'll just disagree because it's never going to come to any consensus.
Is something going on with Lowry or this just random bad luck/regression? He's been terrible for weeks now.
Lou Williams lost the ball and literally threw his hands up in the air trying to get a call.
Prayer answered.
Of course if Amundson didn't blow that dunk it never happens.
Prayer answered.
Of course if Amundson didn't blow that dunk it never happens.
By VahagnEveryone's all over the place. Being a GM means judging someone on a variety of factors. So stop making nonsensical comments.
I don't need to analyze whether each individual trade was good or bad. When you make an assessment that he's one of the best GM's in the league - do you analyze every trade every GM has done? So why are you complaining about me making broad statements?
He hasn't built the 3rd best team in the West. He's built first round fodder entirely reliant on one guy to stop from being blown out by 15 or 20 every night. Pick ANY guy on any other team and have him sit, that team will be more competitive than Houston without Harden.
Chemistry has nothing to do with record. How in the world would you make such a silly argument? If you want to argue that chemistry is irrelevant, go ahead. But making 47 trades in 7 years definitely doesn't do much in the way of building chemistry. Masai Traded Bargnani. Ferry traded Joe Johnson. Plenty of people have traded over paid fuckups. It's not easy. But it's not unprecedented.
His team has made the first round ONE TIME since the cornerstones he never acquired left. So pick your damn goalposts. Either understand that he's got no playoff success to his name, or blame him for his inability to manage the Tmac/Yao core more effectively.
But don't give him a free pass during those years, and then pretend he's always been competitive.
He's doing tons of shit that's basically just a guy trying to re-invent the wheel. And he's accomplished no post season success through it. Stop crediting him for being clever, and start looking at results.
Manage the Tmac/Yao core more effectively? Are you fucking joking? Exactly how do you prevent a hairline fracture and chronic knee issues. GTFO. You aren't going to get me to swallow that Morey is responsible for Yao/Tmacs injury problems. No matter how many bulshit either/or scenarios you want to set up.
None of your prized GM's(some of which I would agree are better) had to claw there way out of a situation like Morey did. You keep wanting to dismiss just how monumental of a task it is to lose your two superstars for basically nothing and within three years have the best SG in the league and one of the best big men without blowing up the team and continuing to win. None of your GM's can claim that victory.
You want to say he can't build chemistry, well, yeah, he didn't in-between the yao and harden years and if he had done that he would be sitting with guys like Kevin Martin, Goran Dragic and Trevor Ariza as cornerstones. I'd say he made the right choice with wheeling and dealing.
As for the top heavy argument, well, the Magic managed to have a very similar set up with a bunch of shooters and Howard inside and made the finals. So to say it is a first round exit style of basketball ignores history.
And if he exits the first round? Guess what? Morey has built an absolute stable of assets over the years since Yao/Tmac to bring in more help. He has our first round draft pick and a stable of moveable pieces.
But I get it, it basically comes down to the fact that you don't buy into Morey ball and don't like his team. That is basically the crux. You don't think he can win with his current roster and that his entire philosophy is therefore flawed and it seems your criticism flows from that. Just know that it is an opinion and that plenty of smart people disagree with your assessment. In fact the consensus is against your assessment.
That was literally the worst loss possible. I feel a deep and abiding shame.
Seriously, the only positive is that nobody died.
Seriously, the only positive is that nobody died.
By JonmBy VahagnEveryone's all over the place. Being a GM means judging someone on a variety of factors. So stop making nonsensical comments.
I don't need to analyze whether each individual trade was good or bad. When you make an assessment that he's one of the best GM's in the league - do you analyze every trade every GM has done? So why are you complaining about me making broad statements?
He hasn't built the 3rd best team in the West. He's built first round fodder entirely reliant on one guy to stop from being blown out by 15 or 20 every night. Pick ANY guy on any other team and have him sit, that team will be more competitive than Houston without Harden.
Chemistry has nothing to do with record. How in the world would you make such a silly argument? If you want to argue that chemistry is irrelevant, go ahead. But making 47 trades in 7 years definitely doesn't do much in the way of building chemistry. Masai Traded Bargnani. Ferry traded Joe Johnson. Plenty of people have traded over paid fuckups. It's not easy. But it's not unprecedented.
His team has made the first round ONE TIME since the cornerstones he never acquired left. So pick your damn goalposts. Either understand that he's got no playoff success to his name, or blame him for his inability to manage the Tmac/Yao core more effectively.
But don't give him a free pass during those years, and then pretend he's always been competitive.
He's doing tons of shit that's basically just a guy trying to re-invent the wheel. And he's accomplished no post season success through it. Stop crediting him for being clever, and start looking at results.
Manage the Tmac/Yao core more effectively? Are you fucking joking? Exactly how do you prevent a hairline fracture and chronic knee issues. GTFO. You aren't going to get me to swallow that Morey is responsible for Yao/Tmacs injury problems. No matter how many bulshit either/or scenarios you want to set up.
None of your prized GM's(some of which I would agree are better) had to claw there way out of a situation like Morey did. You keep wanting to dismiss just how monumental of a task it is to lose your two superstars for basically nothing and within three years have the best SG in the league and one of the best big men without blowing up the team and continuing to win. None of your GM's can claim that victory.
You want to say he can't build chemistry, well, yeah, he didn't in-between the yao and harden years and if he had done that he would be sitting with guys like Kevin Martin, Goran Dragic and Trevor Ariza as cornerstones. I'd say he made the right choice with wheeling and dealing.
As for the top heavy argument, well, the Magic managed to have a very similar set up with a bunch of shooters and Howard inside and made the finals. So to say it is a first round exit style of basketball ignores history.
And if he exits the first round? Guess what? Morey has built an absolute stable of assets over the years since Yao/Tmac to bring in more help. He has our first round draft pick and a stable of moveable pieces.
But I get it, it basically comes down to the fact that you don't buy into Morey ball and don't like his team. That is basically the crux. You don't think he can win with his current roster and that his entire philosophy is therefore flawed and it seems your criticism flows from that. Just know that it is an opinion and that plenty of smart people disagree with your assessment. In fact the consensus is against your assessment.
No it boils to the fact that you're crediting him for building a treadmill team. Having the 5th best record over his tenure is irrelevant when teams like the Lakers, Magic, Celtics, Cavs, Suns, are below him. Those are teams that built contenders and/or won chips while he was steadily getting the 7th 8th or 9th seed. You're valuing consistent mediocrity over going through worthwhile highs and lows.
I didn't blame him for the injuries - but I'm not giving him credit for building a second round team. That team was a second round caliber team before he got there.
Ferry turned Atlanta from a team with tons of albatross contracts to a team that's on the top of the EC in like 3 years.
No, he can't win with this roster. No smart people disagree with me. Just people that see themselves in Morey. If he kept Parsons and Dragic, or Parsons and Lowry, sure he could win with THAT roster. But he didn't, because he's more concerned with flexibility than he is with being a good GM.
Last thing I'll say. I was one of the first people to say that Morey's basically running SVG's system from 6 years ago. That's clear as day. But SVG ran that system with Prime Dwight and he ran it with multiple playmakers. SVG was closer to what SA does than it is what Morey does.
Considering this all started with me talking about the multiple playmakers facet, that's the entire point. I don't have a problem with shooting 3's I have a problem with 12 one dimensional offensive players. I have a problem with the notion that "if Harden's our best player, and we shoot up his usage rate and take away any PG's or Point Forwards from the team, we'll be better for it". That's the kind of conclusion someone reaches without understanding basketball.
@EthanJSkolnick: Final results: Heat lose by 2 to team resting 3 starters; guy next to me friend zoned by girl while buying drinks & dinner. About the same.
By livefromkyotoThat was literally the worst loss possible. I feel a deep and abiding shame.Soooo, Lowry is alive?
Seriously, the only positive is that nobody died.
By VahagnThose numbers are meaningless. Your team is built around James Harden and Dwight and a bunch of spot up 3 point shooters. You're going to have a bunch of assists because most the players on your team just catch and shoot. Whether it's off one pass, or swinging it around, same thing.The irony here is delicious. Those numbers are meaningless. *couple of posts later* Posts a bunch of numbers.
Let's start with a basic premise I hope we can both agree on: Morey makes personnel decisions based on data. He's not interested in traditional team building methods. I'm saying, whatever data Daryl Morey has been using that's told him he can jettison multiple PG's who can actually create for themselves and others and replace them with catch and shoot one dimensional offensive players is leading him astray. Even his dream summer acquisitions of Parsons and Bosh would still leave him with one guy who can create for others as neither Bosh nor Parsons are really point forwards.
Contrast that with Pop, who uses metrics but still has made the decision he'd rather have 3 or 4 guys that can create off the dribble for themselves and teammates instead of one. Morey has attempted to reconstruct 2006 Suns with Raja Bell/Nash switching places with Beverly and Harden, a bunch of outside shooters and Dwight.
This all goes back to my original premise. When you don't have good amounts of experience, you can be lead on wild goose chases by over-reacting to data points that other more experienced guys might just shrug off.
Morey has unequivocally built a team without a second guy who can create for others. This has been on purpose. To maximize Harden's usage rate and surround him with 3 point threats and Dwight.
First bolded is clearly untrue. Our starting Power Forward for most of the season in Motiejunas is proof enough against that. Our starting Power Forward before he got injured in Jones also shows you have no idea what you're talking about. The reason I said our AST% was surprisingly high was because of our inside presence. The numbers you chose to ignore were our turnover metrics, which are what indicated to anybody (including Morey) that we needed another playmaker.
And sure, he makes decisions based on data, as does anybody else out there. To insinuate that he only bases his decisions on data is also false.
Let's take a look at the playoff experience of our roster last season.
Champions: Powell
Finals: Howard, Harden
Conference Finals: Asik, Ronnie Brewer
Second Round: None
First Round: Lin, Parsons, Garcia, Motiejunas, Jones
No experience: Beverley, Daniels, Canaan, Covington, Casspi
And this season:
Champions: Ariza, Terry, Brewer
Finals: Howard, Harden
Conference Finals: None
Second Round: Prigioni, Smith
First Round: Beverley, Motiejunas, Jones
No Experience: Capela, Johnson, McDaniels, Papanikolaou, Dorsey
Now let's take a look at Canaan and Terry:
Canaan comes in at a fraction of the cost of Terry, offers similar production, yet who is the one he kept? Could it be that Morey saw value in Terry that went beyond the numbers? Could it be that after another first round exit he saw the need to bring in players with more playoff experience and veteran leadership?Via ClutchFans:
Jet is by far the most vocal guy on the team. He coached in the huddles a LOT (a little more than Harden), and they all seemed to hang on his every word – Harden included. Harden was all basketball in the huddles, pointing out little mistakes and what needed to happen next… Jet was the motivator, just hyping and encouraging. I heard lots of "WE CAN BEAT THESE GUYS!" from him, and he kept randomly getting up to pat guys on their heads to tell them they were doing a good job.
On the third bolded, he's done the exact opposite twice this season. This narrative you've created about Morey wanting a one-dimensional offense is completely off-base. If we had gotten Bosh, we would have gotten the stretch four he's wanted, who would have spaced the floor with Dwight, and he would have kept Parsons who is a decent passer for his position. You shat on him and our offense earlier because we didn't shoot enough from mid-range, and yet his two biggest free agent targets were elite in that category. Now you're shitting on him for 'building a team of spot-up shooters' when he's made multiple moves in-season to alleviate our offense and recover from his off-season failures. He's brought in Brewer (who was shooting .195 from 3), Shved (.400), McDaniels (.293) and Prigioni (.374). How in the world do you get that to reconcile with your broken narrative? AT ALL?
The last bolded is the only thing I agree with, and it applies to you. All you do is look at our stats, and it makes you think you know anything about my team, when you really, really don't.
By psychintellectBy livefromkyotoThat was literally the worst loss possible. I feel a deep and abiding shame.Soooo, Lowry is alive?
Seriously, the only positive is that nobody died.
Yeah, he was on the sideline making many GIFable "this can't be happening" faces. DeRozan on the other hand though...if you told me he'd been turned into a zombie I might believe you.
By VahagnNo it boils to the fact that you're crediting him for building a treadmill team. Having the 5th best record over his tenure is irrelevant when teams like the Lakers, Magic, Celtics, Cavs, Suns, are below him. Those are teams that built contenders and/or won chips while he was steadily getting the 7th 8th or 9th seed. You're valuing consistent mediocrity over going through worthwhile highs and lows.
I didn't blame him for the injuries - but I'm not giving him credit for building a second round team. That team was a second round caliber team before he got there.
Ferry turned Atlanta from a team with tons of albatross contracts to a team that's on the top of the EC in like 3 years.
No I value the monumental accomplishment of being able to take a franchise in one of the worst situations imaginable and not only abide by the wishes of ownership to keep competitive but ultimately rebuild their roster, rebuild their asset war-chest, and produce a team that is a contender and consists of the best SG in the league, one of the best big men, good role players and flexibility to improve. All in under 4 years.
The team was a championship contender when he got there. It was a team in late lottery hell when Tmac and Yao's careers were clearly over with little assets to the franchises name to rebuild with. That is arguably the worst situation for a GM to be in. Throw in pressure from ownership to win and eventually to mandate big moves and the task is outrageous.
You keep wanting to side step all of that and because of your refusal to acknowledge clear facts and circumstance it pretty much destroys your credibility here.
Good game for the Hawks bench guys. Nice to see some of the guys get some extended minutes particularly Jenkins and Muscula.
Good lord is Whiteside a problem tho.
Good lord is Whiteside a problem tho.
G. Dragic G 35:07 2-7 0-2 2-2 -8 1 2 3 6 1 2 3 0 0 6
M. Chalmers 34:48 5-13 2-4 4-5 0 0 1 1 4 3 5 2 1 1 16
TRAGIC AM SO BAD COMMENT PYSCHO UHAHAUA MIAMI FOOLED UAHUHA WORST THAN CHALMERS UAUAHAU
ISIAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHS>>>>TRAGIC
FUCK DALLAS FRAUDS..... RONDO IS SO SHIT. branduil talk now
WOW SEEMS TH REAL CONTENDER IN EAST ARE SHOWING UP NOW
CRAPTORS BACK WIZARD DISSAPEARS CHICAGO NO ROSE.
CELTICS CLEVELAND FINAL BELIEVE................
M. Chalmers 34:48 5-13 2-4 4-5 0 0 1 1 4 3 5 2 1 1 16
TRAGIC AM SO BAD COMMENT PYSCHO UHAHAUA MIAMI FOOLED UAHUHA WORST THAN CHALMERS UAUAHAU
ISIAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHS>>>>TRAGIC
FUCK DALLAS FRAUDS..... RONDO IS SO SHIT. branduil talk now
WOW SEEMS TH REAL CONTENDER IN EAST ARE SHOWING UP NOW
CRAPTORS BACK WIZARD DISSAPEARS CHICAGO NO ROSE.
CELTICS CLEVELAND FINAL BELIEVE................
By chandlerparsonsBy VahagnThose numbers are meaningless. Your team is built around James Harden and Dwight and a bunch of spot up 3 point shooters. You're going to have a bunch of assists because most the players on your team just catch and shoot. Whether it's off one pass, or swinging it around, same thing.The irony here is delicious. Those numbers are meaningless. *couple of posts later* Posts a bunch of numbers.
Let's start with a basic premise I hope we can both agree on: Morey makes personnel decisions based on data. He's not interested in traditional team building methods. I'm saying, whatever data Daryl Morey has been using that's told him he can jettison multiple PG's who can actually create for themselves and others and replace them with catch and shoot one dimensional offensive players is leading him astray. Even his dream summer acquisitions of Parsons and Bosh would still leave him with one guy who can create for others as neither Bosh nor Parsons are really point forwards.
Contrast that with Pop, who uses metrics but still has made the decision he'd rather have 3 or 4 guys that can create off the dribble for themselves and teammates instead of one. Morey has attempted to reconstruct 2006 Suns with Raja Bell/Nash switching places with Beverly and Harden, a bunch of outside shooters and Dwight.
This all goes back to my original premise. When you don't have good amounts of experience, you can be lead on wild goose chases by over-reacting to data points that other more experienced guys might just shrug off.
Morey has unequivocally built a team without a second guy who can create for others. This has been on purpose. To maximize Harden's usage rate and surround him with 3 point threats and Dwight.
First bolded is clearly untrue. Our starting Power Forward for most of the season in Motiejunas is proof enough against that. Our starting Power Forward before he got injured in Jones also shows you have no idea what you're talking about. The reason I said our AST% was surprisingly high was because of our inside presence. The numbers you chose to ignore were our turnover metrics, which are what indicated to anybody (including Morey) that we needed another playmaker.
And sure, he makes decisions based on data, as does anybody else out there. To insinuate that he only bases his decisions on data is also false.
Let's take a look at the playoff experience of our roster last season.
Champions: Powell
Finals: Howard, Harden
Conference Finals: Asik, Ronnie Brewer
Second Round: None
First Round: Lin, Parsons, Garcia, Motiejunas, Jones
No experience: Beverley, Daniels, Canaan, Covington, Casspi
And this season:
Champions: Ariza, Terry, Brewer
Finals: Howard, Harden
Conference Finals: None
Second Round: Prigioni, Smith
First Round: Beverley, Motiejunas, Jones
No Experience: Capela, Johnson, McDaniels, Papanikolaou, Dorsey
Now let's take a look at Canaan and Terry:
Via ClutchFans:Jet is by far the most vocal guy on the team. He coached in the huddles a LOT (a little more than Harden), and they all seemed to hang on his every word – Harden included. Harden was all basketball in the huddles, pointing out little mistakes and what needed to happen next… Jet was the motivator, just hyping and encouraging. I heard lots of "WE CAN BEAT THESE GUYS!" from him, and he kept randomly getting up to pat guys on their heads to tell them they were doing a good job.
On the third bolded, he's done the exact opposite twice this season. This narrative you've created about Morey wanting a one-dimensional offense is completely off-base. If we had gotten Bosh, we would have gotten the stretch four he's wanted, who would have spaced the floor with Dwight, and he would have kept Parsons who is a decent passer for his position. You shat on him and our offense earlier because we didn't shoot enough from mid-range, and yet his two biggest free agent targets were elite in that category. Now you're shitting on him for 'building a team of spot-up shooters' when he's made multiple moves in-season to alleviate our offense and recover from his off-season failures. He's brought in Brewer (who was shooting .195 from 3), Shved (.400), McDaniels (.293) and Prigioni (.374). How in the world do you get that to reconcile with your broken narrative? AT ALL?
The last bolded is the only thing I agree with, and it applies to you. All you do is look at our stats, and it makes you think you know anything about my team, when you really, really don't.
Holy shit the amount of defensive stupid on here is amazing.
a) Just because the data you presented is meaningless doesn't mean all data is meaningless. I pointed out why. Total assists isn't a good measure of whether or not you have multiple playmakers. I showed that clear as day with the actual breakdowns. Your inability to see that is just you being a homer and nothing else. When Harden drives and kicks to the corner, and that guy (let's say Ariza) kicks it to the wing, Ariza isn't CREATING the play. He's getting an assist if the guy on the wing catches and makes it. But he's not creating the play. He can't run the offense and make that offense execute effectively. The championship Mavs, Spurs, Heat, and Lakers and plenty of other teams all have that. The 2009 Magic had that with Turk, Nelson, Rashard and Skip to My Lou too. Your team doesn't. You've passed on multiple elite and good PG's in the process making that situation even more glaringly obvious.
b) Morey jettisoning players for the chance to sign Bosh and then making frantic mid season changes to alleviate his mistakes is the definition of going on wild goose chases. How are you refuting what I'm saying while proving what I'm saying. I never said he was unwilling to change or that he stuck to his team. I said the opposite. He makes 47 trades because he's constantly going on wild goose chases instead of building a core and letting that core grow.
c) So you replaced conference finals experience with finals experience and you think that proves what? He got those players because he likes them, he's had them before. Ariza and Brewer included. With the exception of Terry. But by all means, use one guy as your explanation for why Morey cares so damn much about experience.
d) Wasn't the entire statistics community belittling "championship experience" just a few years ago? The fact that Morey later realized he should add some veterans proves my point. Not disproves it. He's jerking from theory to theory and approach to approach based on whatever the hell. Call it data, call it experience. But he's embracing things now that old school thinkers have embraced for decades and that the analytics community trashed just a few years ago. Intangibles, right?
e) Your team can have more than one flaw, you realize this right? Not shooting mid range shots, and shooting only spot up 3's are the same thing. They aren't mutually exclusive. Terry is an elite mid range shooter sure, but he's also a deadly 3 point shooter. Your team isn't using him like Dallas used him and that's why you shoot way more threes and way less mid range than anyone else. Acquiring a mid range guy and using him as a 3 point shooter doesn't make it clear you like mid range shots.
f) Uh, D Mo shoots 3's. so Does Pompalaksjdflkjasdflkjasf. And if Dwight was available all season, D Mo would shoot a shit ton more threes than he does as your primary (and only) low post option most nights.
You're not proving anything. You're just getting defensive as hell
If Garnett doesn't get ejected, we probably win. Rally needed his defense down the stretch. Oh well.
By JonmNo I value the monumental accomplishment of being able to take a franchise in one of the worst situations imaginable and not only abide by the wishes of ownership to keep competitive but ultimately rebuild their roster, rebuild their asset war-chest, and produce a team that is a contender and consists of the best SG in the league, one of the best big men, good role players and flexibility to improve. All in under 4 years.
The team was a championship contender when he got there. It was a team in late lottery hell when Tmac and Yao's careers were clearly over with little assets to the franchises name to rebuild with. That is arguably the worst situation for a GM to be in. Throw in pressure from ownership to win and eventually to mandate big moves and the task is outrageous.
You keep wanting to side step all of that and because of your refusal to acknowledge clear facts and circumstance it pretty much destroys your credibility here.
Stop parading around 5th best regular season record when he's not gotten past the second round and many teams on that list below the Rockets have then. Otherwise, it's clear you're supporting the wrong things.
How do you fancy this team is a contender exactly? They've made the first round ONE time with this core. You want this team to be a contender, but it hasn't proven that it is yet. You're dramatically over stating what he had to go through to build this team. I use Atlanta and Toronto because they've done just as much if not more with the same situation.
You're giving him so much credit because you like him, you think like him, you value his style of play. Not because he's won anything, or because he's drafted ingeniously or because he's found and kept tons of great prospects.
Also depending the matchups, I like the Rockets chances assuming Howard will be able to last the entire postseason.
No team is a guaranteed series win, but I would like to think Dallas, Memphis, and Portland are favorable matchups. We did lose to the Blazers, but we were the overall favorites to win before the choke job.
Avoid Clippers or OKC at all costs. The other teams can go either way.
No team is a guaranteed series win, but I would like to think Dallas, Memphis, and Portland are favorable matchups. We did lose to the Blazers, but we were the overall favorites to win before the choke job.
Avoid Clippers or OKC at all costs. The other teams can go either way.
By EleuinIt's been fun rapsI fuckin told y'all but did you listen?
time to blow this team up and rev up the tank
Lowry stopped giving a fuck after he made the All-Star game it's so obvious.
By psychintellectWhen You Want to Kill Chalmers but Don't Want to Face Prison Timelol spo usually never has a reaction.