By blackace Go To PostThis is a great example how things got fucked up when talking race and / or class in the US.
Somehow these issues became blended with politics… conservatives claiming racism is a liberal myth and liberals seemingly overly interested in pushing racial agendas…
We have to separate the politics from the right to live with respect and diginty… politics are forcing people to take sides because of misinformation on all fronts…
That's because conservatism isn't an actual political philosophy anymore than radical extremist Muslims in middle eastern countries is a political philosophy.
It's simply a way to take racism, sexism, patriarchy, homophobia, Christian supremacy and give it credibility by couching it in political talk.
What we think of as conservatism - states rights, free markets, individual liberty, consititutional originalism, small federal govt is actually libertarianism. Conservativism, or some massive proportion of it, is the desire to maintain white, male, Christian, heterosexual supremacy. It's the same in most western countries, as we saw with Brexit. And it's the Muslim version of that in middle eastern countries. The Armenian version in Armenia, the Indian/Hindu version in India, etc etc.
When you talk about racism as an institutional thing, I think it helps to identify the political tool with which it maintains Its power and existence.
I can't agree with a single wore except for racism is still institutionalized...
but hey if you can't see why the way you paint people with different views as yours as super extremist ( not saying both sides dont have extremist ) is ironic as well as counter productive then trying to discuss anything is pointless because you have already made up your mind that they are crazy...
but hey if you can't see why the way you paint people with different views as yours as super extremist ( not saying both sides dont have extremist ) is ironic as well as counter productive then trying to discuss anything is pointless because you have already made up your mind that they are crazy...
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostDefending white killers is the conservative position on the issue. Sure there are plenty of conservatives who don't, but that's because they're more accepting of the liberal position.So trumps generalisations about mexicans were fine with you?
Much in the same way that the conservative position on the issue of gay marriage is that gay people are an abomination and they shouldn't be allowed to marry, this doesn't change when some conservatives reject that position and embrace the liberal one.
When I say conservatives I don't mean "all conservative people". I mean the conservative ideological position.
It's like saying "libertarians don't support NSA snooping". I'm sure there are plenty of self-identified libertarians that do, but it runs counter to the libertarian ideological position.
Stop doing it. You've been told by 3 mods. There won't be another comment made about it.
Basically there are conservatives who are really bothered by these shootings and liberals who don't give a fuck about them.... We can't assume everything about a person because of some label...
I've already made clear the difference between conservative people and conservative ideology. This isn't that hard to understand.
There are plenty of Christians that believe in karma and reincarnation, but as a religious studies major, it would be true to say "chrisrians don't believe in karma" because you're referencing Christian theology.
And no, conservative/liberal ideology =\= race because they are a set of beliefs that can be referenced and discussed.
Conservatism is a set of ideological beliefs that is different from libertarianism. (Mainly because social conservatives are more preoccupied with the type of society we live in then government's role or size in shaping it).
There are tons of liberals that believe in tons of different things. But there is also the liberal position and the conservative position on issues.
Women's suffrage, civil rights, unions, abolition, LGBT were all liberal movements even though not all liberals supported them and some or many conservatives did.
There are plenty of Christians that believe in karma and reincarnation, but as a religious studies major, it would be true to say "chrisrians don't believe in karma" because you're referencing Christian theology.
And no, conservative/liberal ideology =\= race because they are a set of beliefs that can be referenced and discussed.
Conservatism is a set of ideological beliefs that is different from libertarianism. (Mainly because social conservatives are more preoccupied with the type of society we live in then government's role or size in shaping it).
There are tons of liberals that believe in tons of different things. But there is also the liberal position and the conservative position on issues.
Women's suffrage, civil rights, unions, abolition, LGBT were all liberal movements even though not all liberals supported them and some or many conservatives did.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostWomen's suffrage, civil rights, unions, abolition, LGBT were all liberal movements even though not all liberals supported them and some or many conservatives did.How do you define "liberals"? The word has changed immensely throughout history. Liberalism is not a coherent ideology that has traversed time without being impacted by it. No such thing as self-identified "liberals" at the time of the women's fight for the right to vote. Also, the history of the democratic party is not exactly favorable to racial progress.
That being said, it's kinda silly to pretend real-life incarnate Republicans have not offered the worst kind of answers to racial injustice recently. Of course this discussion is political.
some two decades ago we had a debate in this country between liberals and conservatives on the death penalty. The willingness to de-value life and allow the state to kill people runs counter to small govt, but the sides were pretty firmly drawn.
Since then we've had similar debates about stand your ground laws, use of excessive force in situations without "compliance", concealed or open carry, etc etc.
Again, this doesn't mean that all conservatives or all liberals line up neatly along these lines or accept these positions, but it does mean that the Liberal and the conservative position on these issues is different
Since then we've had similar debates about stand your ground laws, use of excessive force in situations without "compliance", concealed or open carry, etc etc.
Again, this doesn't mean that all conservatives or all liberals line up neatly along these lines or accept these positions, but it does mean that the Liberal and the conservative position on these issues is different
sure some of the spokespeople have... what's the point?
That's like saying Louis Farrakhan represents most blacks
That's like saying Louis Farrakhan represents most blacks
By Gabyskra Go To PostHow do you define "liberals"? The word has changed immensely throughout history. Liberalism is not a coherent ideology that has traversed time without being impacted by it. No such thing as self-identified "liberals" at the time of the women's fight for the right to vote. Also, the history of the democratic party is not exactly favorable to racial progress.
That being said, it's kinda silly to pretend real-life incarnate Republicans have not offered the worst kind of answers to racial injustice recently. Of course this discussion is political.
I think we can argue that liberalism has changed with respect to theories on economics. But not with respect to social progressivism. People in the backwoods of Alabama have always been more conservative in this country then the people of New York or Chicago as a matter of public policy on social issues. The political parties' stitching together different constituencies doesn't change that. Libertarians and social conservatives both vote republican today, but they have vastly different views of governments role in determining our society - at least ideologically.
And social conservatives in the south in the 50's and communists in Hollywood both voted democratic too despite having vastly different views and for different reasons.
By blackace Go To PostThat's like saying Louis Farrakhan represents most blacksPeople don't vote for the Nation of Islam in droves. Tens of millions vote for political leaders who have answered the racist crisis in the worst way.
But I think what you're saying is hinting at something that I find very interesting: lots of people are "born into" their political sympathies to some extent.
I think people have a tendency to not make something political because they think something is a human issue, or there's another impulse driving that uneasiness.
But when a society disagrees about something big, there may or may not be a ideological separation.
There is no conservative/liberal position on whether Kim K is hot. But there is absolutely one on whether we should build a wall or whether police using fatal force against people who don't comply is justified.
But when a society disagrees about something big, there may or may not be a ideological separation.
There is no conservative/liberal position on whether Kim K is hot. But there is absolutely one on whether we should build a wall or whether police using fatal force against people who don't comply is justified.
Conservatism (or conservativism) is any political philosophy that favours tradition (in the sense of various religious, cultural, or nationally-defined beliefs and customs) in the face of external forces for change, and is critical of proposals for radical social change.
That's the Google definition. So in the context of America - religious and cultural customs and beliefs is Christianity and white supremacy
In Iran it's different, in India it's different. But it's more or less the same formula.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostI think people have a tendency to not make something political because they think something is a human issue, or there's another impulse driving that uneasiness.
But when a society disagrees about something big, there may or may not be a ideological separation.
There is no conservative/liberal position on whether Kim K is hot. But there is absolutely one on whether we should build a wall or whether police using fatal force against people who don't comply is justified.
But "ideologies" don't drive history like that. Ideas are not imposed upon people like they exist independently of the world we live in. Ideologies shape the world, but the world (history) shapes ideologies too. The "wall" is a good example that migration policies have a history, they're not just taken from sacred principles out of a book. The people in favor of it today probably supported Reagan's actions in 1986 (which were not exactly immigrant-friendly, but they were certainly different from Trump's vision).
As for defining what conservatism is, I like Corey Robin's book, the Reactionary Mind. He says it's not about following a sacred book, it's a reaction to progressive movements. It's not an ideology, it's a force.
By Gabyskra Go To PostBut "ideologies" don't drive history like that. Ideas are not imposed upon people like they exist independently of the world we live in. Ideologies shape the world, but the world (history) shapes ideologies too. The "wall" is a good example that migration policies have a history, they're not just taken from sacred principles out of a book. The people in favor of it today probably supported Reagan's actions in 1986 (which were not exactly immigrant-friendly, but they were certainly different from Trump's vision).
As for defining what conservatism is, I like Corey Robin's book, the Reactionary Mind. He says it's not about following a sacred book, it's a reaction to progressive movements. It's not an ideology, it's a force.
I think the first part sort of underlies my running point. That the common thread that links American conservatism over the last 200 years isn't actually small govt, states rights, free markets, or individual liberty - it's white/male/Christian/heterosexual supremacy.
So the parameters for the debate in the 80's on immigration were less extreme than today's, but the conservative position was still predictably more anti immigrant than the liberal position at that time.
Even in the course of a year the new conservative position became that "keeping out illegal immigrants with a wall is ok" and then turned into "criticizing American born people of Mexican heritage is ok."
20 years ago we were debating the state killing the most vile and heinous killers and rapists after due process is ok. but today we're debating whether the state killing people for reaching for their wallet too quickly is ok. Conservative positions doesn't mesh with stated ideology of small govt and individual liberty, but there's another motivation that actually drives conservative thought.
Like, there's the platonic ideal version of conservatism.
A philosophy that isn't racist, sexist, bigoted in any way at all. that believes in small govt, state rights, free markets, individual liberty and the constitution. That can deal with problems rationally and present solutions that can work but that exist within the stated beliefs.
After looking at a bunch of conservative positions on issues, both now and in the past - the common thread I'm seeing is not states rights and free markets. It's something else.
A philosophy that isn't racist, sexist, bigoted in any way at all. that believes in small govt, state rights, free markets, individual liberty and the constitution. That can deal with problems rationally and present solutions that can work but that exist within the stated beliefs.
After looking at a bunch of conservative positions on issues, both now and in the past - the common thread I'm seeing is not states rights and free markets. It's something else.
UNCLE TOM ALERT: DALLAS POLICE CHIEF EDITION.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/07/11/dallas-police-chief-were-asking-cops-to-do-too-much-in-this-country/
Apparently we need more police to step in and father our African American youth.... This dude is obviously mentally drained and needs to sit down somewhere and rethink his profession.
Saying he was “running on fumes,” Brown spoke frankly about everything that his employees have to deal with on a daily basis – and that it can be overwhelming at times. “We’re asking cops to do too much in this country” said Brown.
“Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve” said Brown. He listed mental health, drug addiction, loose dogs, failing schools as problems the public expects ‘cops to solve.’
“Seventy percent of the African American community is being raised by single women, let’s give it to the cops to solve that as well” said Brown. “Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.”
When asked what advice he would give black men, Chief Brown said, “Become a part of the solution, serve your community. Don’t be a part of the problem…we’re hiring. Get off that protest line and put an application in. We’ll put you in your neighborhood – we will help you resolve some of the problems you are protesting about.”
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/07/11/dallas-police-chief-were-asking-cops-to-do-too-much-in-this-country/
Apparently we need more police to step in and father our African American youth.... This dude is obviously mentally drained and needs to sit down somewhere and rethink his profession.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostLike, there's the platonic ideal version of conservatism.
A philosophy that isn't racist, sexist, bigoted in any way at all. that believes in small govt, state rights, free markets, individual liberty and the constitution. That can deal with problems rationally and present solutions that can work but that exist within the stated beliefs.
After looking at a bunch of conservative positions on issues, both now and in the past - the common thread I'm seeing is not states rights and free markets. It's something else.
Is the answer White Men hating everybody else getting rights that are equal to their own....... but God forbid somebody steps on their rights. If anything threatens them and their power kill it. Mix that with conservatives tendency to think they are just a temporarily embarrassed millionaire so they got to keep the rich richer until the world finally gives them the millions they deserve, and you got American conservatism.
By CRUD Go To PostUNCLE TOM ALERT: DALLAS POLICE CHIEF EDITION.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/07/11/dallas-police-chief-were-asking-cops-to-do-too-much-in-this-country/
Apparently we need more police to step in and father our African American youth…. This dude is obviously mentally drained and needs to sit down somewhere and rethink his profession.
I guess they got tired of the black on black crime bird whistle so its now "You're to promiscuous and you need a man to run a family" bird whistle......
Just another lost one. He is so disconnected due to working inside the system of white supremacy. He is fully aware of what he is saying and does not care as long as it pleases his masters.
The problems that cop mentions are exactly the problems that teachers have to deal with, in a much more concrete way I would add. And I don't see teachers killing people.
A ton of single moms has nothing at all to do with killing black men, bullshit plea deals, mandatory minimums, harsher sentencing and just general failures of justice. Join the cops instead. What. Being a cop doesn't solve much of the systemic inequities minorities face at all.
Im not sure if it belongs here, but BLM protestors managed to shut down one of the busiest freeways in the world, the 405, in inglewood, which is a bit south of LAX airport to boot.
https://www.facebook.com/fresconews/videos/vb.487151931388976/867466336690865/?type=2&theater
https://www.facebook.com/fresconews/videos/vb.487151931388976/867466336690865/?type=2&theater
I would boo Jesus while he was coming to earth and saving lives if he did it while creating more traffic on the 405 (or any major traffic vein in LA)
By Fenderputty Go To PostI would boo Jesus while he was coming to earth and saving lives if he did it while creating more traffic on the 405 (or any major traffic vein in LA)Spoken like De Blasio. Funny, but shortsighted.
I read that as: You can't beat us, so you might as well join us and get paid. You can work from home and monitor your wildin ass son so your coworkers won't have to potentially shoot his black ass.
It's really win win if you think about it.
It can't be stressed enough that cops are not black and they're not white. They're blue. They're taught to stand by one another through the good, and the bad, and that's honestly where the divide comes into play in most of these situations, both for their department and the public.
I'm seeing this shit first hand here in Baltimore with Freddie Grey. These cops are getting off and are suing the DA for defamation. This boy lost his life on nothing. No charges. Nothing. And they're offended their good name is being tarnished to the public. Name me another job where the people you're sworn to protect, who pay your salary can die in custody on your watch and somehow you feel wronged?
Like, I don't agree with the Dallas shooter at all, but I also understand. Shit is fucked and enough is enough. Eventually someone is going to have to figure that out or more bodies are going to continue to drop on both sides.
It's really win win if you think about it.
It can't be stressed enough that cops are not black and they're not white. They're blue. They're taught to stand by one another through the good, and the bad, and that's honestly where the divide comes into play in most of these situations, both for their department and the public.
I'm seeing this shit first hand here in Baltimore with Freddie Grey. These cops are getting off and are suing the DA for defamation. This boy lost his life on nothing. No charges. Nothing. And they're offended their good name is being tarnished to the public. Name me another job where the people you're sworn to protect, who pay your salary can die in custody on your watch and somehow you feel wronged?
Like, I don't agree with the Dallas shooter at all, but I also understand. Shit is fucked and enough is enough. Eventually someone is going to have to figure that out or more bodies are going to continue to drop on both sides.
cops have fucked up so much my mom is tired of this shit and my dad is a cop. she used to take their sides for everything but has changed her stance.
like gq said though, cops dont see race, they only see blue. i used to work near home awhile back so when walking home one day three plain clothes cops just walk up to me and start harassing me, one of them reaching into my pocket to take my phone and starts going through it. a bunch of other shit happens but whatever, anyway they eventually let me go because i mentioned my dad was nypd.
i had to remind my dad that this happened and that cops abuse their power. his quote was "yea they know they fucked up but they let you go once you mentioned your dad was a cop" and i just looked at him like really? you know they fucked up but still try to find a way to justify what they did to your own son
like gq said though, cops dont see race, they only see blue. i used to work near home awhile back so when walking home one day three plain clothes cops just walk up to me and start harassing me, one of them reaching into my pocket to take my phone and starts going through it. a bunch of other shit happens but whatever, anyway they eventually let me go because i mentioned my dad was nypd.
i had to remind my dad that this happened and that cops abuse their power. his quote was "yea they know they fucked up but they let you go once you mentioned your dad was a cop" and i just looked at him like really? you know they fucked up but still try to find a way to justify what they did to your own son
Uh, cops definitely see blue, but a lot of them see race too. Let's not kid ourselves.
If you offered the govt to go through every cops social media, texts, browser history, and Internet posting for the past 5 years to find instances of racist or white supremacist leanings in exchange for a 50K bonus if they passed and immediate termination if they failed - what percentage of police departments take that deal?
If you offered the govt to go through every cops social media, texts, browser history, and Internet posting for the past 5 years to find instances of racist or white supremacist leanings in exchange for a 50K bonus if they passed and immediate termination if they failed - what percentage of police departments take that deal?
Gov. Pat McCrory signed controversial legislation Monday regulating the release of recordings from police body and dashboard cameras.
There were growing calls for McCrory to veto the legislation because it makes it difficult for the public – including people involved in a recorded police action – to see it. But the Republican governor said the law will strike a balance between improving public trust in the police and respecting the rights of officers.
Theres no purpose for this bill other than to allow the law to execute people without threat of the nation-wide public anger like we saw last week. Its literally a declaration of war against police accountability & transparency. Still, neither of those videos we saw last week were from body cams and this legislation cant stop private citizens from recording & sharing their footage.
http://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article88985782.html#storylink=cpy
By blackace Go To PostBasically there are conservatives who are really bothered by these shootings and liberals who don't give a fuck about them…. We can't assume everything about a person because of some label…Yeah, diet racist liberal "allies" who have a paternalistic belief that THEY offer the best strategy & tactics for Black progress because THEY know how the world really works are more harmful & debilitating to Black causes than hardcore racists who just flat out hate Black people.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostUh, cops definitely see blue, but a lot of them see race too. Let's not kid ourselves.
when i said they see blue not race i didn't mean it literally
there's like a totem pole
Cops
White
Hispanic/Asians
Middle Eastern
Black
You could be a black muslim cop and you would still be above white people, just like to most cops i'm probably just some illegal hispanic immigrant until i mention my dad is a cop and then its "oh im sorry, have a good day"
The guy they found hanging in Piedmont Park in ATL looking even more like a suicide. Family and friends say he was strugging with being gay, and family did not accept it according to the AJC.
By theignoramus Go To PostYeah, diet racist liberal "allies" who have a paternalistic belief that THEY offer the best strategy & tactics for Black progress because THEY know how the world really works are more harmful & debilitating to Black causes than hardcore racists who just flat out hate Black people.
I gotta call BS. That's the Clarence Thomas, Pro-Slavery argument that's been going on for 250 years.
"White liberals are the real racists". White liberals definitely have more work to do, and can be condescending, but just because different people disagree on the best tactics or means with which to fight evil doesn't mean they're worse than that evil.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostI gotta call BS. That's the Clarence Thomas, Pro-Slavery argument that's been going on for 250 years.Its not uncommon for people to feel like they'd rather deal with a deliberate, blatant racist than one who thinks they're helping and knows your struggles better than you do. I'd rather be punched in the stomach than patted on the head.
"White liberals are the real racists". White liberals definitely have more work to do, and can be condescending, but just because different people disagree on the best tactics or means with which to fight evil doesn't mean they're worse than that evil.
By DY_nasty Go To PostIts not uncommon for people to feel like they'd rather deal with a deliberate, blatant racist than one who thinks they're helping and knows your struggles better than you do. I'd rather be punched in the stomach than patted on the head.
Sure. Perhaps on an individual basis. But when talking about allies vs. people who want you oppressed or hold firm against the right position, I don't see how it's close.
It doesn't seem to me to be about whether one guy is condescending or whether he's yelling profanities from his rocking chair. It's about whether the end goal will be fought for or against.
Speaking personally, There are a lot of people that think it's a shame that the Armenian genocide isn't recognized. But I know deep down they don't give a fuck outside of a little bit of momentary anger. But I'd take that over the assholes like Edrogan that actively fight to keep it unrecognized and spread misinformation and bullshit justifications all day.
More officers killed today. It hasn't been confirmed if this is a shooter situation like Dallas or just police being killed due to crime.
Three law enforcement officers were shot dead and at least three others wounded in Baton Rouge, La., on Sunday, the East Baton Rouge Parish Sheriff’s Office said in a statement.Christ.
One suspect had been killed, most likely by police gunfire, and two others, described as wearing all black, were being sought, said Cpl. L’Jean McKneely, a police spokesman. “We do believe there is more than one suspect.”
Although, this part...
After the shooting in Dallas, Stephen Loomis, the president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen’s Association, urged people not to take their guns anywhere near Cleveland’s downtown during the convention because officers were already in a “heightened state.”The lack of self awareness in that statement, smh.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/18/us/baton-rouge-shooting.html
Each flash represents an actual shooting in an 11-day period.
Based on data from the Gun Violence Archive: 1,077 injured, 509 killed - a total of 1,586 people shot.
Problem? What gun problem?
Based on data from the Gun Violence Archive: 1,077 injured, 509 killed - a total of 1,586 people shot.
Problem? What gun problem?
By Adam Blade Go To PostStay safe, Kibner.Thanks. I live out in the boonies away from most civilization, so I should be ok. The real test comes Tuesday when I have to meet a client in an industrial area roughly 15 miles from city limits.
Today's shooter was also ex-military. Should we wait until a group of these people get together or maybe do something now?
In the wake of the Orlando, Fla., shooting, some conservative politicians called for the use of the term “radical Islam” to label the violent movement with which Omar Mateen identified himself. In the wake of the police shootings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile, many called for a review of violence by law enforcement against black Americans. And after Dallas, some piled on the Black Lives Matter movement, suggesting that the gunman was spurred to murder because he’d made reference to the group. Others use the term “black-on-black violence” to refer to the killings of poor black Americans in their communities, playing into what author Ta-Nehisi Coates has labeled “the enduring myth of black criminality.”http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-police-mass-shooting-men-women-gender-20160715-snap-story.html
What we don’t talk about is how the greatest predictor of violence isn’t religion, occupation or race. It’s gender.
In the United States, 98% of those who commit mass shootings are male; 98% of the officers who have shot and killed civilians are male; 90% of those who commit homicide by any means are male; and 80% of those arrested for all violent crimes — murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault — are male.
Add black to the male and that article doesn't see the light of day, despite following along the same logic.
By etiolation Go To PostAdd black to the male and that article doesn't see the light of day, despite following along the same logic....
By etiolation Go To PostAdd black to the male and that article doesn't see the light of day, despite following along the same logic.#alllivesmatter
I find it funny that both shooters are ex military but really weren't combat tested due to their jobs in the military...
In the United States, 98% of those who commit mass shootings are black male; 98% of the officers who have shot and killed civilians are black male; 90% of those who commit homicide by any means are black male; and 80% of those arrested for all violent crimes — murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault — are black male.
By etiolation Go To PostAdd black to the male and that article doesn't see the light of day, despite following along the same logic.
Well the reality is the majority of mass shooters are white males.... but trust me if this continues the stereotype will be added to black males really soon. Sort of how after michael Vick happened it became a stereotype that all black men hate dogs
By etiolation Go To PostAdd black to the male and that article doesn't see the light of day, despite following along the same logic.
What in the literal fuck.