Can't even talk shit it's like when the U.S. realized the gravity of having Bush for 8 years after already doing it.
People are dumb assholes.
People are dumb assholes.
By Forever Go To PostThis would be hilarious if the consequences weren't so serious.how fucking dumb do you have to be to regret your decision already?
'I really regret my vote now': The Brexit voters who wish they'd voted to remain
Too late now you jackasses.
maybe spend more than 5 minutes on 4chan doing research before you go out and vote on important issues
By Rob Go To Posthow fucking dumb do you have to be to regret your decision already?
maybe spend more than 5 minutes on 4chan doing research before you go out and vote on important issues
But why, if I already know I hate foreigners?
By Tea Go To PostCan't even talk shit it's like when the U.S. realized the gravity of having Bush for 8 years after already doing it.
People are dumb assholes.
Thing is that Bush wasn't a problem. Bush was what happens when you just vote for a guy who sounds like a middle of the road conservative. He's not much different than Mitt or Dole or his father. I mean, he was dumber, and Cheney was more evil, but people felt that they were voting for a capable man who had conservative values.
Now, if you believe, like I believe, that voting for a conservative of any kind, no matter how sensible, is basically playing Russian Roulette where you have a 1 in 6 chance - at best to survive the experiment - then yes, you can make that argument.
This Brexit vote was mutually assured destruction. There was no moderation here. There was no line of experts going "yea, this could possibly work". Voting for Brexit is like not doing anything on climate change. There is no dissenting credible opinion. No feasible or likely alternative other than the predictable shit show everyone knows is going to happen.
By Forever Go To PostThis would be hilarious if the consequences weren't so serious.
'I really regret my vote now': The Brexit voters who wish they'd voted to remain
Too late now you jackasses.
smfh
By Kabro Go To Postwhy am I hearing that this is a good sign for Trump?
People are stupid. Just because the brits decided they didn't want any more brown people and were willing to leave the EU over it doesn't mean shit here in America. Trump is still going to lose big.
By Kabro Go To Postwhy am I hearing that this is a good sign for Trump?http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/clinton-recession-brexit-224323
By Enron Go To PostPeople are stupid. Just because the brits decided they didn't want any more brown people and were willing to leave the EU over it doesn't mean shit here in America. Trump is still going to lose big.Except Americans don't want brown people here either. 50 gay people just got murdered and it was turned into a "SEE! MUSLIMS HATE OUR WAY OF LIFE! BAN THEM!"
Meanwhile a year ago those same people were telling gay people to fuck off and you can't get married because my imaginary friend in the sky says you can't.
By Rob Go To PostExcept Americans don't want brown people here either. 50 gay people just got murdered and it was turned into a "SEE! MUSLIMS HATE OUR WAY OF LIFE! BAN THEM!"
Meanwhile a year ago those same people were telling gay people to fuck off and you can't get married because my imaginary friend in the sky says you can't.
The theory of the case is that there are a lot more people of color in the US than in Britain. And things like the electoral college tend to give a structural advantage to liberals.
Out of interest, in the US could an elector essentially lie about who they will represent, and vote for the other party?
By Hitch Go To PostOut of interest, in the US could an elector essentially lie about who they will represent, and vote for the other party?If I recall my old history lessons correctly, it's only happened once, with one electoral college delegate who refused to vote for his pledged candidate and voted for some third party guy who I think might not even have been running.
It's probably technically possible for a delegate to vote for the other major party but it's one of those things that would never happen in the modern context. These days the media announces winners on election night and concessions are expected immediately; legally there is no winner until the electoral college meets but that's been reduced to a formality at this point.
The founding fathers originally designed it that way because they didn't trust direct democracy. Especially in their time they knew that the majority of the population were uneducated idiots who shouldn't be trusted with decisions that could destroy the country.
By Forever Go To PostThe founding fathers originally designed it that way because they didn't trust direct democracy. Especially in their time they knew that the majority of the population were uneducated idiots who shouldn't be trusted with decisions that could destroy the country.You make it sound like their anti-democratic stance was more sound than prejudiced. It's not like they intended to educate people (/free others) either. And "educated" women weren't to be trusted either. Education is not the word that Madison used in the Federalist Papers for instance, he talked about the problematic "passion" of the people, a prejudiced idea that still makes waves today ("women are too emotional", etc). The hatred that the delegates had for democracy had a lot to do with Shays' Rebellion and general class resentment. Disenfranchisement was never a necessity, just a testament of power.
On the topic of Great Britain, some fascinating stats here.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
The leave vote was carried by old conservatives who hate immigration, feminism, environmentalism, the internet (!), etc.
I love how his statistics are ultimately structured like a long, horrifying joke.
Dat punchline:
Dat punchline:
More than two thirds (69%) of leavers, by contrast, thought the decision “might make us a bit better or worse off as a country, but there probably isn’t much in it either way”.This overused gif has perhaps never been more appropriate:
More classic nonsense from leavers I've had the pleasure to speak to.
one guy thinks house prices and mortgage rates will fall "buhcus der gubberment will stup givin immuhgrants free housing."
Another guy praising the decision because now all the Jews controlling the money in Germany are losing control over Europe.
one guy thinks house prices and mortgage rates will fall "buhcus der gubberment will stup givin immuhgrants free housing."
Another guy praising the decision because now all the Jews controlling the money in Germany are losing control over Europe.
By Facism Go To PostMore classic nonsense from leavers I've had the pleasure to speak to.It's amazing that these myths that are nearly 100+ years old, still exist.
one guy thinks house prices and mortgage rates will fall "buhcus der gubberment will stup givin immuhgrants free housing."
Another guy praising the decision because now all the Jews controlling the money in Germany are losing control over Europe.
Wait, did Gaby just go on a long diatribe about the founding fathers being wrong and prejudiced (which they were) because, among other things, "passion" was a sexist word
And then in the same post link to the Brexit results?
Dude, Brexit is the shining example of everything the founding fathers got right! It's also a shining example of what happens when passions are flared and lack of education is thrown in the mix.
And then in the same post link to the Brexit results?
Dude, Brexit is the shining example of everything the founding fathers got right! It's also a shining example of what happens when passions are flared and lack of education is thrown in the mix.
By DY_nasty Go To Postcackling at the massive effort to undo this shit rn
I mean, Trump right?
Same dynamic has been in the Republican Party for 6 months.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostI mean, Trump right?sure why not
Same dynamic has been in the Republican Party for 6 months.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostWait, did Gaby just go on a long diatribe about the founding fathers being wrong and prejudiced (which they were) because, among other things, "passion" was a sexist wordAre you purposefully misreading what he actually said? Because he doesn't disagree with you one bit and you don't disagree with him either. You guys, for the millionth time, are in agreement on the subject at hand.
And then in the same post link to the Brexit results?
Dude, Brexit is the shining example of everything the founding fathers got right! It's also a shining example of what happens when passions are flared and lack of education is thrown in the mix.
By Pennywise Go To PostIt's amazing that these myths that are nearly 100+ years old, still exist.Nonsense. We all know what needs to happen again!
By reilo Go To PostAre you purposefully misreading what he actually said? Because he doesn't disagree with you one bit and you don't disagree with him either. You guys, for the millionth time, are in agreement on the subject at hand.
1. I was not ranting, Forever talked about history, I talk about history, i didn't bring up the topic
2. We actually disagree, he's expressing a common misunderstanding about the intents of the founding fathers (their opposition to democracy being rooted in their knowledge of the lack of education of people), and it's an attitude still prevalent today among liberals that I find toxic ("people are dumb" etc). This "elitism" of sorts is a legacy from the republicanism that didn't enfranchise poor people, black people and women ; people find it legitimate to disrespect people's political rights in the face of disagreements. I also didn't say passion was a sexist word, 3sp, you don't really want to understand what I'm saying.
3. I'll say very politely that it would be nice if the discussion here was a bit calmer than 3sp is.
1. The founding fathers can both be racist/sexist and still be right about the potential dangers of direct democracy and inflamed passions.
2. The notion that the founding fathers had a problem with direct democracy ONLY because they were racist and sexist instead of maybe they were also justifiably scared of shit like Brexit and actually thought about the dangers inherent in letting people vote for massively important things directly instead of representatives is a little silly.
3. Saying that liberals are "toxic" and "elitist" for saying direct democracy is dangerous on the same page/post where you mention Brexit is just. I mean, how?
2. The notion that the founding fathers had a problem with direct democracy ONLY because they were racist and sexist instead of maybe they were also justifiably scared of shit like Brexit and actually thought about the dangers inherent in letting people vote for massively important things directly instead of representatives is a little silly.
3. Saying that liberals are "toxic" and "elitist" for saying direct democracy is dangerous on the same page/post where you mention Brexit is just. I mean, how?
By Gabyskra Go To Postit's an attitude still prevalent today among liberals that I find toxic ("people are dumb" etc).Bruv. People ARE dumb. They vote for stupid shit all the time. You're the one who posted that poll of Brexit voters illustrating that yes these people are in fact dangerously stupid. That's exactly why we don't have direct democracy, and it's exactly why we don't put issues that could destroy the country up for a plebiscite.
If America voted on the Muslim ban right now the Muslim ban would win. The framers were exactly right to fear the "passions" of the people.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To Post2. The notion that the founding fathers had a problem with direct democracy ONLY because they were racist and sexist instead of maybe they were also justifiably scared of shit like Brexit and actually thought about the dangers inherent in letting people vote for massively important things directly instead of representatives is a little silly.
Your comment is obviously anachronistic because you're being rhetorical, but to speak in rigorous historical terms, Madison & others opposed democracy because they though black people weren't people, women were inferior, poverty was the doing of Nature, they were afraid of Shays' Rebellion, of people wanting the use of paper money, and most importantly, because they opposed the "wicked project" of "equal property" (at the time of slavery, should it be pointed out). That's all I'm saying. You're free to think they were right or that those facts are anecdotal. As for me, I think it makes zero sense to be deferential towards the dead and a system which they created without any knowledge that there would even be political parties, or more democracy eventually.
By Forever Go To PostBruv. People ARE dumb. They vote for stupid shit all the time. You're the one who posted that poll of Brexit voters illustrating that yes these people are in fact dangerously stupid. That's exactly why we don't have direct democracy, and it's exactly why we don't put issues that could destroy the country up for a plebiscite.
I'm the French son of a Polish woman who met an Italian man, himself the son of a Slovenian woman. I'm all for freedom of movement and international solidarity, without them, I would not even exist. I am very concerned about the rise of xenophobia in Europe. But I truly do not think what just happened is about people's intelligence, however you define it. I think it's the result of a political history in which European so-called elites were mistaken in thinking that free trade would be enough to instill a sense of solidarity among European people.
By Gabyskra Go To PostI'm the French son of a Polish woman who met an Italian man, himself the son of a Slovenian woman. I'm all for freedom of movement and international solidarity, without them, I would not even exist. I am very concerned about the rise of xenophobia in Europe. But I truly do not think what just happened is about people's intelligence, however you define it. I think it's the result of a political history in which European so-called elites were mistaken in thinking that free trade would be enough to instill a sense of solidarity among European people.
Correct me if I'm wrong but your argument - when simplified reads like this:
- The founding fathers were elites that were racist and sexist so bad on them.
-the Brexit vote, while also racist and xenophobic, is because of the elites at the EU so don't pile on the bigots and make sure you assign blame against the elites and capitalism that didn't work for the proletariat again.
You seem to be taking all of this and then inserting it into your filter of "proletariat good, elitist bad"
There are multiple factors at play, but I believe the far-right is progressing mostly because of the failure of pro-business politicians to deliver to working people. The EU has been a force in favor of the interests of a small minority, wrecking labor law here and there, imposing austerity, etc. Nationalism is progressing as working-class socialist/communist politics are regressing. Also, anti-immigrant sentiment is very encouraged by mainstream politicians. Cameron, whom I'm guessing some consider a part of the enlightened minority necessary in a representative system, is certainly guilty of hurting immigrants.
As for the historical discussion, again, I did not bring it up. I make no connection, but if I see one, it's that there's a long history to disdain towards democratic rights. And yes, btw, the EU also fails insofar it's dominated by non-elected governmental bodies. If people tell you they feel they have no control over the EU, there's a bit of reality to that. Ironically, the lack of democracy in the EU is part of the reason why people distrust it. But they're wrong in thinking that national governmental bodies are easier to exercise control over.
As for the historical discussion, again, I did not bring it up. I make no connection, but if I see one, it's that there's a long history to disdain towards democratic rights. And yes, btw, the EU also fails insofar it's dominated by non-elected governmental bodies. If people tell you they feel they have no control over the EU, there's a bit of reality to that. Ironically, the lack of democracy in the EU is part of the reason why people distrust it. But they're wrong in thinking that national governmental bodies are easier to exercise control over.
Going to laugh my balls off if Boris gets in as PM. A guy with Turkish ancestry leading a leave vote where one of the primary fears was a brown tide of Turkish immigrants washing over the white cliffs of Dover.
sounds worse by the day
i hope i never see the day where brit Slaenters trade blowjobs for boiled shoes and goblets of brown sewer water
stay strong
i hope i never see the day where brit Slaenters trade blowjobs for boiled shoes and goblets of brown sewer water
stay strong
The only reason to leave the EU would be control over ones currency, which the UK had anyway. Pretty crazy this liberal utopia I grew up thinking of Europe is shifting so hard to the right.
I don't think this ruins the UK's economy, especially long term after they've opened up some trade deals.
If anything this is just another nail in the EU's half assed attempt at forming a real union. Too much history to break down the borders.
By Lambda Go To Postsounds worse by the day
i hope i never see the day where brit Slaenters trade blowjobs for boiled shoes and goblets of brown sewer water
stay strong
I don't think this ruins the UK's economy, especially long term after they've opened up some trade deals.
If anything this is just another nail in the EU's half assed attempt at forming a real union. Too much history to break down the borders.
By Fenderputty Go To PostI don't think this ruins the UK's economy, especially long term after they've opened up some trade deals.It most certainly does. The UK is a service economy and the EU isn't going to cut them much slack there, especially not when the banks can and will just move to Paris or Frankfurt. Also negotiating trade deals solo gives the UK basically zero leverage; they're going to get reamed by the other parties at the table.
By Forever Go To PostIt most certainly does. The UK is a service economy and the EU isn't going to cut them much slack there, especially not when the banks can and will just move to Paris or Frankfurt. Also negotiating trade deals solo gives the UK basically zero leverage; they're going to get reamed by the other parties at the table.
So you think this forever fucks the UK and that this is something they can't ever work around?
By Fenderputty Go To PostSo you think this forever fucks the UK and that this is something they can't ever work around?In short, yes. Even if someday down the line they rejoin (by which point tremendous damage would already be done) they'd have to follow the same rules as everyone else and they'd lose the special exceptions they had before; they'd have to adopt the Euro etc. It's really not that complicated. If you're a service economy that is no longer able to provide services to your major trading partners you're going to have a bad time.
By Fenderputty Go To PostSo you think this forever fucks the UK and that this is something they can't ever work around?
Why is that the metric? They're going to be worse off long term than they were before they made this dumb ass move to appease conspiracy theory anti Semites and white supremacists.
By Forever Go To PostIn short, yes. Even if someday down the line they rejoin (by which point tremendous damage would already be done) they'd have to follow the same rules as everyone else and they'd lose the special exceptions they had before; they'd have to adopt the Euro etc. It's really not that complicated. If you're a service economy that is no longer able to provide services to your major trading partners you're going to have a bad time.
I wouldn't rejoin if the conditional was adopting that garbage currency while no actual fiscal Union exists. The trade deals might not be as good, but they'll come back.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostWhy is that the metric? They're going to be worse off long term than they were before they made this dumb ass move to appease conspiracy theory anti Semites and white supremacists.
Because that's what forever and I we're discussing?
By Fenderputty Go To PostI wouldn't rejoin if the conditional was adopting that garbage currency while no actual fiscal Union exists. The trade deals might not be as good, but they'll come back.I don't think you get it. Access to the single market is not coming back. Ever. That's irreplaceable and it's literally the foundation of the UK economy.
The UK is not some manufacturing powerhouse. Trade deals that reduce tariffs and such will only encourage a trade deficit; money will be leaving the UK as Britain imports what it lacks from other countries, and little cash will be flowing the other way because Britain doesn't export terribly much. Furthermore, no one is going to want to invest in the UK right now so they'll be losing out on billions in FDI.
It's not the sort of thing you can fix with some magical bilateral trade deals.
By Forever Go To PostI don't think you get it. Access to the single market is not coming back. Ever. That's irreplaceable and it's literally the foundation of the UK economy.
The UK is not some manufacturing powerhouse. Trade deals that reduce tariffs and such will only encourage a trade deficit; money will be leaving the UK as Britain imports what it lacks from other countries, and little cash will be flowing the other way because Britain doesn't export terribly much. Furthermore, no one is going to want to invest in the UK right now so they'll be losing out on billions in FDI.
It's not the sort of thing you can fix with some magical bilateral trade deals.
I'm not implying they manufacture anything. The trade deals I'm speaking of would work to reduce the impact of losing single market.
EDIT: The EU's single market is basically just a giant free trade structure / trade deal. It's not an actual union with fiscal policy. Keep in mind I think what the UK did was stupid. They had the best of both worlds benefiting from the free trade while not having to join the currency. You do have a good point about leverage though. Even if they get back some of the benefits of the single market it would not be a like for like with what they have now.
Fenderputty is correct, mostly. It isn't like the EU can afford to completely cut off the UK either. The UK service economy is essential to the EU and there will be deals struck in order to ensure that they stay around. Will the terms be less favorable than they are now since they will be "out" of the single market? Of course they will be. But this is not going to 'destroy' the UK economy. A recession is likely, but the UK isn't going to turn into Mad Max anytime soon.
Again. Why are we talking about "being fucked forever" or "Mad Max Dystopia"
Why is that the metric?
"I know he has lung cancer, but stop overreacting - it's not like he's blowing up into a million tiny pieces in 5 minutes".
I mean, what are we even arguing here?
Why is that the metric?
"I know he has lung cancer, but stop overreacting - it's not like he's blowing up into a million tiny pieces in 5 minutes".
I mean, what are we even arguing here?
By Enron Go To PostFenderputty is correct, mostly. It isn't like the EU can afford to completely cut off the UK either. The UK service economy is essential to the EU and there will be deals struck in order to ensure that they stay around. Will the terms be less favorable than they are now since they will be "out" of the single market? Of course they will be. But this is not going to 'destroy' the UK economy. A recession is likely, but the UK isn't going to turn into Mad Max anytime soon.
Which is basically what I meant when I said:
I don't think this ruins the UK's economy, especially long term after they've opened up some trade deals.
They will go through some sort term pains, but long term kinda depends on their future deals and governance.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostAgain. Why are we talking about "being fucked forever" or "Mad Max Dystopia"
Why is that the metric?
"I know he has lung cancer, but stop overreacting - it's not like he's blowing up into a million tiny pieces in 5 minutes".
I mean, what are we even arguing here?
It started with me saying that I don't think this ruins the UK economy, especially long term, in response to: "blowjobs for boilded shoes"
Chose whatever metric you want. It's not a good thing. The reasons it was done are beyond stupid. I just think it will have greater short term effects than long term effects and whatever the outcome is (Not boiled shoes), it's better than ever adopting the Euro as a currency.
By Fenderputty Go To PostWhich is basically what I meant when I said:
They will go through some sort term pains, but long term kinda depends on their future deals and governance.
They're about 100% sure to be worse off in the short term and about 90% sure to be worse off in the long term.
Will they completely collapse? Of course not. Are they going to be much worse for a long time because of this and need to get a bunch of stuff right just for a chance to be better off in 30 years? Yes.
I have a friend who's at a really high position in HP in London for the last 3 months. She's an MBA with an undergrad degree in international business. Her response to this was, verbatim "the economy will suffer for a long, long time".
You basically just listed a bunch of hyperbolic percentages gave a random 30 year timeline and didn't give reasons for why.
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12024728/brexit-economy-economists-recession
Seems like most of these economists think it was bad but wouldn't be some long lasting depression causing phenomenon.
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12024728/brexit-economy-economists-recession
Seems like most of these economists think it was bad but wouldn't be some long lasting depression causing phenomenon.
By Fenderputty Go To PostYou basically just listed a bunch of hyperbolic percentages gave a random 30 year timeline and didn't give reasons for why.
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12024728/brexit-economy-economists-recession
Seems like most of these economists think it was bad but wouldn't be some long lasting depression causing phenomenon.
I think you took the blowjobs for boiled shoes thing too literally.
This won't be mad max, horrible forever or a long lasting depression (most likely).
It will be a self inflicted economic wound that's quite serious and provides few if any alternate reality scenarios where Britain is better off in the future because of it.
The truth is we'll have no idea how bad this gets until after the trade deals are negotiated. If the EU and the US decide to make an example out of Britain, it could get bad quickly. If Scotland and Norther Ireland leave, it could get worse