We already saw a little bit of it back when Shaq was on Phoenix but he's definitely nowhere near the athlete he was in the late 90s early 00s. I wonder what Prime Shaq would be like as a defender in today's pick n' roll happy NBA.
Would still be a plus defender most likely, but it'd be interesting to see.
Would still be a plus defender most likely, but it'd be interesting to see.
By reiloRT @TrailBlazersPR: Aldridge (upper respiratory illness) is QUESTIONABLE, Lopez (right hand fracture) & Batum (right wrist sprain) are OUT tonight @ OKC.If Aldridge doesn't play and we don't win then that's fucking embarrassing. Even with Durant out.
Well tonight should be a cluster-fuck. Tune in for the Dame vs Westbrook show, I suppose.
I'm looking for Ibaka to finally show up too. He's been barely above average this season.
By ForeverMCW's biggest strength is his defense from what I've seen. They need to find a way to stop turning the ball over so much and have somebody who can score reliably before they can become a playoff team, though, even in the East.
By KingGondoI'm looking for Ibaka to finally show up too. He's been barely above average his career.
Fixed.
By ratcliffjaMCW's biggest strength is his defense from what I've seen. They need to find a way to stop turning the ball over so much and have somebody who can score reliably before they can become a playoff team, though, even in the East.Embiid is that scorer, if healthy. With one more smart draft pick, they could sign a raft of free agents next summer and easily make a playoff run.
They're probably going to choose to be bad for at least another year though.
Noel's offense is not as good as I was hoping. Defensively, he's still going to be great, but I'm pretty sure he and Embiid have no chance together offensively. Hopefully, for Philly, Noel has a great year next year and they can trade him for an elite wing.
By IWMTB19Noel's offense is not as good as I was hoping. Defensively, he's still going to be great, but I'm pretty sure he and Embiid have no chance together offensively. Hopefully, for Philly, Noel has a great year next year and they can trade him for an elite wing.How do you feel about Towns and Embiid?
By ForeverBy IWMTB19Noel's offense is not as good as I was hoping. Defensively, he's still going to be great, but I'm pretty sure he and Embiid have no chance together offensively. Hopefully, for Philly, Noel has a great year next year and they can trade him for an elite wing.How do you feel about Towns and Embiid?
Not so good either but better since both Towns and Embiid can shoot. Embiid and Towns are both pure centers though and both guys are MUCH better near the basket on defense. The best qualities of Towns and Embiid is that they're elite rim protectors. Playing one guy at PF forces them to play against a bunch of guys who can stretch the floor.
It could work OK since Embiid is so athletic that he can get from the perimeter to the paint quickly enough to still block shots, but it's not an ideal fit at all I think.
By KingGondoZach Lowe ranked the Bestern Conference:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-nbas-western-conference-power-rankings/
Got it right IMO.
Until he got to this part...
"Everyone in the West is terrified of them."
I know San Antonio isn't afraid of a healthy Thunder squad, and if the Warriors can go 10 players deep in the playoffs they aren't going to fear them either.
I disagree that OKC should be placed above San Antonio.
San Antonio
OKC
Warriors
and Gorgui Dieng can’t protect the rim; opponents have nailed 60.3 percent of their shots around the basket when Dieng is near both the shooter and the hoop, the second-worst mark among the 61 players who have defended at least five such shots per game.
Well at least the stats back up what my eyes tell me?
By IWMTB19Duncan is still amazing and has been on the same level of quality for several years while still being arguably the best player on title teams, just a "blip" on his career arc and comparable to the one year of great basketball Shaq had after 2006.
Shaq had just as good 17th season (09) and Duncan did last year (his 17th). Pop's done great for Duncan with his minutes and such and he's not been hurt like Shaq.
But Shaq often lollygagged during the season waiting for the playoffs. Sure, at the end of his career Shaq's playoffs weren't good. But Duncan also had some stinkers in the playoffs too.
By IWMTB19Oh, Shaq was definitely an all-time great player. I'm just laughing at the false equivalency Mamba is trying to use to compare the end of Shaq and Duncan's careers. In Shaq's last five years, he missed 35% of possible games played. In Duncan's last five years, he's missed 11%. In Shaq's last five years, he had a PER above 20 twice and WS/48 above .15 twice. In his last five years, Duncan has never had a PER below 20 or WS/48 below .15. Duncan is also still at the top of the NBA in adjusted plus or minus. In Shaq's last five years, he was traded multiple times and then left those teams in free agency to vulture more rings while only managing to play in 20 total playoff games. Duncan won a title last year while leading the Spurs in playoff win shares, playoff PER, playoff minutes, and playoff rebounds while only being 26 points away from leading the Spurs in playoff points. The end of their careers isn't comparable at all. Shaq had one great year in his last five, Duncan has been great in each of his last five.
Shaq had a normal career arc, Duncan is this generation's Kareem/Stockton.
It's not a false equivalency by me, it's by you. I'm just arguing you're overstating Shaq's end of career as being bad and forgetting his early years. Shaq really only had one bad season in the NBA (the half in Miami half in Phx season). All the others he was above average or good.
Also, I was commenting on your "shaq had 10 great years, 8 not bullshit that made it seem like only half his career was good.
If you want to say Duncan has had the better career then I'm totally fine with it and I'd probably agree. Shaq ruined his end of career by not being willing to take a back seat when it was his time on offense which Duncan easily accepted. I also don't believe Shaq was as competitive as Duncan. Shaq, though, was the better player. Hell, we saw them go head to head in their primes and Shaq was better.
Just look at how many people put Larry Bird in the top 5 all-time. But he didn't have a top five all-time career. It was too short. Doesn't stop people from arguing he's a top 5 player, however. The two can be mutually exclusive.
By Wahoos007Until he got to this part…First of all, my "got it right" comment was partly tongue in cheek.
"Everyone in the West is terrified of them."
I know San Antonio isn't afraid of a healthy Thunder squad, and if the Warriors can go 10 players deep in the playoffs they aren't going to fear them either.
I disagree that OKC should be placed above San Antonio.
San Antonio
OKC
Warriors
"Afraid" isn't the right term for the Spurs attitude against us, but I think they'd admit that we have the best chance of beating them of anyone. We're the only team with the athleticism and interior defense to slow them down on offense.
As for your Dubs comment: depth is highly overrated in the playoffs, as we see year after year. It's about your top 7 guys.
By reiloFixed.He's still a gamechanger on defense regardless of his stats. His mere presence affects ballgames.
I'm personally just sick of him standing out by the three point line on offense.
By reiloThunder better hope Durant comes back soon, because…He'll be back Thursday at the Spurs. I have very little doubt that he could have played tonight but they're being cautious.
I've always said that we just need to keep our heads above water through the end of January. The schedule gets a lot easier after that.
BTW, stuff like "Philly's defense is the 11th best" is where the advanced stats run into a problem.
Teams don't try hard against Philly because they know they can't score. Like, at all. And teams will willingly rest stars against them if they can (whether it is not playing or playing shorter minutes). And if they get up big Philly's starters are playing against the backups.
I'm not saying Philly doesn't play good defense. I'm saying there's no real way for the advanced stats to measure something like players not trying hard because they know they don't have to do so.
Philly is probably worse on defense than the numbers say. And if anyone argues about the above, they've clearly never played sports. Everyone tries less when you know the other team is overmatched.
Teams don't try hard against Philly because they know they can't score. Like, at all. And teams will willingly rest stars against them if they can (whether it is not playing or playing shorter minutes). And if they get up big Philly's starters are playing against the backups.
I'm not saying Philly doesn't play good defense. I'm saying there's no real way for the advanced stats to measure something like players not trying hard because they know they don't have to do so.
Philly is probably worse on defense than the numbers say. And if anyone argues about the above, they've clearly never played sports. Everyone tries less when you know the other team is overmatched.
By MambaBut Duncan also had some stinkers in the playoffs too.
By "stinkers" you mean "stinker", right?
Unless you want to argue that Shaq had a "good" playoff series for Phoenix because lol.
In Charlotte for the holidays, so I went to the game last night and it was good to see the Hornets destroy the Nuggets (though there was some racist dude sitting behind me and I wanted to sock him in his face)
By reiloBy MambaBut Duncan also had some stinkers in the playoffs too.
By "stinkers" you mean "stinker", right?
Unless you want to argue that Shaq had a "good" playoff series for Phoenix because lol.
Two below average ws/48 playoffs, and one just a bit above.
Way below his regular season marks. In '08 he had over 0.2 ws/48 and was .12 in the playoffs. Nearly half has good as you were all season is bad. Also, that year his series vs Lakers in WCF was kinda bad and also some massive stinkers against the Hornets if my memory serves me right.
When you're elite during the season and average in the playoffs, I qualify that as a stinker.
FWIW, I like Duncan more than Shaq as a player. Duncan is second only to Dirk for non-Lakers for me and I was never a Shaq fan because I hated how he played on offense stylisticaly.
By MambaShaq really only had one bad season in the NBA (the half in Miami half in Phx season).
Word?
We're not talking about "good" or "above average" here.
We're talking about being the best big man of the last 20 years.
Simmons says Jeff Green is the perfect destination for Portland just reminded me that Jeff Green is still in the league.
By HasphatsAntsBy MambaShaq really only had one bad season in the NBA (the half in Miami half in Phx season).
Word?
We're not talking about "good" or "above average" here.
We're talking about being the best big man of the last 20 years.
What does "best big man" mean? Best career or best overall player? One can be Duncan, the other can be Shaq. To me "best big man" sounds like the latter, not former.
Both in their peak, I take Shaq.
edit: And Duncan's numbers don't look that different in WS. Not a big believer in yearly BPM tbh.
Duncan has been close to the best player on title contenders for the last five years. Shaq in his last five years.
Missed 42 games in one season, leading to the Heat losing in the first-round.
Got traded to the Suns where he was not good in the playoffs or regular season.
Had a good year with the Suns but then got traded for nothing to Cleveland.
Did nothing in Cleveland.
Did nothing in Boston.
And Duncan has still been one of the five or ten best defenders in the league.
Duncan has not been "a bit better with regards to longevity." It hasn't been close. Shaq's career arc and decline was perfectly normal and he's an all-time great. But Shaq had one productive year following him looking like he was done before he was actually done. Duncan has been elite for all of the last five years.
Missed 42 games in one season, leading to the Heat losing in the first-round.
Got traded to the Suns where he was not good in the playoffs or regular season.
Had a good year with the Suns but then got traded for nothing to Cleveland.
Did nothing in Cleveland.
Did nothing in Boston.
And Duncan has still been one of the five or ten best defenders in the league.
Duncan has not been "a bit better with regards to longevity." It hasn't been close. Shaq's career arc and decline was perfectly normal and he's an all-time great. But Shaq had one productive year following him looking like he was done before he was actually done. Duncan has been elite for all of the last five years.
Duncan's prior four years (also affected by the lockout): 29.4 win shares
Shaq's last five years: 19.2 win shares
???
Shaq's last five years: 19.2 win shares
???
I understand that "Shaq wasn't healthy" and it affected his ability to produce later in his career, but that is part of what makes Timmy great. His ability to stay healthy and be productive isn't an asterisk -- it's an argument for.
http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/d/tim_duncan_vs_shaquille_oneal.htm
looks pretty close no matter how you try to make Shaq lesser than Timmy
looks pretty close no matter how you try to make Shaq lesser than Timmy
By IWMTB19Duncan's prior four years (also affected by the lockout): 29.4 win shares
Shaq's last five years: 19.2 win shares
???
well if the last 4 years were the only years
By blackacehttp://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/d/tim_duncan_vs_shaquille_oneal.htm
looks pretty close no matter how you try to make Shaq lesser than Timmy
Except the defensive side of the court. Tim Duncan was great defensively from the day he came into the NBA and still is today. Shaq was better offensively in his prime, but Tim's amazing defense is still winning Spurs championships at his age. You can't ignore that.
By rodeoclownSurprised to hear that Wolves fans are souring on Dieng. I wanted him in the draft and have long feared he might be better than Plumlee.and Gorgui Dieng can’t protect the rim; opponents have nailed 60.3 percent of their shots around the basket when Dieng is near both the shooter and the hoop, the second-worst mark among the 61 players who have defended at least five such shots per game.
Well at least the stats back up what my eyes tell me?
By blackacehttp://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/d/tim_duncan_vs_shaquille_oneal.htm
looks pretty close no matter how you try to make Shaq lesser than Timmy
I'm just talking about the end of their careers, there's a bunch of other stuff to consider obviously.
By ForeverSurprised to hear that Wolves fans are souring on Dieng. I wanted him in the draft and have long feared he might be better than Plumlee.He's just an increasingly hard player to like. He does some nice things, he rebounds well, his offensive game is alright (his mid range jumper is coming along), but that defense is such a glaring flaw.
I get how hard it is to try and defend with Thad Young and the dudes we're running out at point guard without Rubio, but it's frustrating.
By reiloBy blackacehttp://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/d/tim_duncan_vs_shaquille_oneal.htm
looks pretty close no matter how you try to make Shaq lesser than Timmy
Except the defensive side of the court. Tim Duncan was great defensively from the day he came into the NBA and still is today. Shaq was better offensively in his prime, but Tim's amazing defense is still winning Spurs championships at his age. You can't ignore that.
No one has ignored that I myself said that Timmy was the better two-way player
but Shaq was so much ridiculously dominate than TD ever was on O
Shaq vs Timmy is peak vs career. If you want to win a game 7 and you can choose between prime Duncan and prime Shaq, it'd be difficult not to take Shaq.
Career wise, Timmy of course.
I think players should take a huge amount of pride in either of those categories. Sometimes guys can't stay healthy or things happen. They should still be lauded in some avenue for what they were at their best.
Career wise, Timmy of course.
I think players should take a huge amount of pride in either of those categories. Sometimes guys can't stay healthy or things happen. They should still be lauded in some avenue for what they were at their best.
ESPN ending 2014 on a bang:
Wiggins has a PER of 9 this year and -0.7 win shares.
Andrew Wiggins vs. 2003 LeBron
But can he [Wiggins] score 25 points per night efficiently in the seasons ahead? Absolutely.
Wiggins has a PER of 9 this year and -0.7 win shares.
By IWMTB19ESPN ending 2014 on a bang:Andrew Wiggins vs. 2003 LeBronBut can he [Wiggins] score 25 points per night efficiently in the seasons ahead? Absolutely.
Wiggins has a PER of 9 this year and -0.7 win shares.
David Thorpe is awful. He is paid to write articles about his own clients, and it's a complete conflict of interest. The reason he's hyping up Wiggins is because he's his client and it the more money Wiggins made, the more money Thorpe makes.
It's also why Thorpe has been "Andre Drummond is a sure-fire multi-time All-Star and HoFer" the last couple of seasons.
By DarkShaq vs Timmy is peak vs career. If you want to win a game 7 and you can choose between prime Duncan and prime Shaq, it'd be difficult not to take Shaq.
Career wise, Timmy of course.
I think players should take a huge amount of pride in either of those categories. Sometimes guys can't stay healthy or things happen. They should still be lauded in some avenue for what they were at their best.
This is pretty much my point the last post.
I was merely trying to state that Shaq wasn't as bad as IWMTB insinuated. Yes, Duncan's later stages were better. But Shaq's wasn't garbage. Even his Boston time was okay when he played. Yes, he was hurt but when he did play he was still good in his final years, for the most part.
Just look how IWMTB dodges the topic. Instead of backing up his assertion that Shaq wasn't good, he compared him directly to Duncan and doesn't realize the Win Shares number he posts literally proves my point (he also uses an older Shaq and more years in the league Shaq vs slightly younger duncan and less years...oh and 4k more minutes).
And like I said, Duncan isn't flawless. he's had some stinkers in the playoffs for what he accomplished during the regular seasons. He's benefited from how Pop plays him and he never ever took the pounding Shaq took.
Still, he's underrated. I'd have him above guys like Bird.
"Look at how IWMTB19 dodges the topic: responding to claims that Duncan and Shaq had similar arcs at the end by posting only about the topic of how Duncan and Shaq did not have similar career arcs at the end."
I don't even care about Shaq vs. Duncan in general, your posts about them having similar arcs and Duncan being only "slightly better in the longevity department" were just fucking stupid and that's the only thing I've been arguing about.
I don't even care about Shaq vs. Duncan in general, your posts about them having similar arcs and Duncan being only "slightly better in the longevity department" were just fucking stupid and that's the only thing I've been arguing about.
By DarkShaq vs Timmy is peak vs career. If you want to win a game 7 and you can choose between prime Duncan and prime Shaq, it'd be difficult not to take Shaq.
Career wise, Timmy of course.
I think players should take a huge amount of pride in either of those categories. Sometimes guys can't stay healthy or things happen. They should still be lauded in some avenue for what they were at their best.
I'd take Duncan if it's game 7 against Bron Bron and the Heat that's for sure.
By DarkSo we find out if Wiggins has any heart at all tonight.Look, I know he hasn't played well offensively this season, but he can't create for himself very well and he hasn't had a point guard since Rubio went down.
By ratcliffjaEmbiid will instantly make that team better.By ForeverMCW's biggest strength is his defense from what I've seen. They need to find a way to stop turning the ball over so much and have somebody who can score reliably before they can become a playoff team, though, even in the East.
