By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostHonestly all 3 guys give you what u need. They coach defense, have decent or solid rotations at times, and get buy in. The offense is going to be handled by Phil and the assistants in practice + 2 years of learning already.
Any one of the 3 work just fine. Blatt's the only question mark with buy in but lebron's a notorious diva, so that doesn't say much about Blatt.
Vogel and Joerger are basically the same guy, either one works.
If anything, you want the guy with no reservations about Phil and the triangle. The last thing you want is dysfunction between FO and Coach when there are 3 solid candidates to choose from.
That's why I put Vogel first. He's coached teams that used the triangle as its offense before. Its a level of comfort with the triangle (and brian Shaw who could be added to the bench) that makes what Phil is trying to do a lot easier.
By Zeus Ex Machina Go To PostThat's why I put Vogel first. He's coached teams that used the triangle as its offense before. Its a level of comfort with the triangle (and brian Shaw who could be added to the bench) that makes what Phil is trying to do a lot easier.Which team Vogel coached the triangle?
By unknown Go To PostWhich team Vogel coached the triangle?
He had Brian Shaw as his offensive coordinator the year they beat the 54 win knicks..... He was the HC/Defense guy, Shaw oversaw the triangle offense. Its basically the type of puppet relationship is looking for but with Rambis is Shaws place (though he could probably pick shaw up too). Hell Vogel even said he hired Shaw because he was a Phil disciple.
Reading that Memphis only pay market value for a coach. If Knicks open their wallet, they easily can have Vogel. Heck, they could have Blatt too if they want.
On another note Russell came into the league looking like a complete bust after summer league and finished his season as a legit top 5 pick.
Excited to see what Kerr does with Clarkson/Russel next year. They can both shoot the 3 and play pick and roll basketball. This should be interesting.
Excited to see what Kerr does with Clarkson/Russel next year. They can both shoot the 3 and play pick and roll basketball. This should be interesting.
By Zeus Ex Machina Go To PostI just had a thought if Joerger goes to the kings… I think he should try to convince Conley to follow him.
Conley could become the leader/adult they need and provide them with high level PG play. Also Conley has to know him staying in Memphis locks that teams cap up for the foreseeable future.
That would be a great off-season for the Kings.
Apparently the Chris Wallace/Kings stuff is nothing real. Wallace interviewed when Vivek bought the team. I imagine Vivek and Vlade told Wallace that there's space for him there if he wants it, but no real discussion. Joerger, it seems, had truly expressed to the Grizz he wanted to have a chance at the Kings job. That was enough for the Grizz to say hasta.
Though I think he'll wait a bit and be courted now. It would be a good hire for the Kings and far above the names they've interviewed so far.
Though I think he'll wait a bit and be courted now. It would be a good hire for the Kings and far above the names they've interviewed so far.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostOn another note Russell came into the league looking like a complete bust after summer league and finished his season as a legit top 5 pick.Who?!
Excited to see what Kerr does with Clarkson/Russel next year. They can both shoot the 3 and play pick and roll basketball. This should be interesting.
By vic Go To PostWho?!
I keep confusing Kerr and Walton for some reason. I just think of them as one entity now
By Zeus Ex Machina Go To PostI just had a thought if Joerger goes to the kings… I think he should try to convince Conley to follow him.The problem with that is that Conley doesn't like Joerger.
Conley could become the leader/adult they need and provide them with high level PG play. Also Conley has to know him staying in Memphis locks that teams cap up for the foreseeable future.
By The Frankman Go To Posterrr…i mean, randle is a rebounding machine, his defense is at best ok, and he can't shoot.
By The Frankman Go To PostReading that Memphis only pay market value for a coach. If Knicks open their wallet, they easily can have Vogel. Heck, they could have Blatt too if they want.
I don't think they want Blatt.
Blatt is still an unknown. Preferable to known shit coaches like Rambis, but he shouldn't be one of the first targeted.
By etiolation Go To PostSo how many coaches get let go this off season? More than last? Is Stotts safe?Stotts is super safe... someone better check on Fred Hoiberg tho
By Rob Go To PostBlatt is still an unknown. Preferable to known shit coaches like Rambis, but he shouldn't be one of the first targeted.
Basically
More coaches as fall guy nonsense. If I was in the NBA I'd just stay an assistant at this point. I mean yeah "they paid" but basically getting fired and having to move is stressful regardless. And if you got kids that finally found some solid structure and friends, it's even more shitty moving them again.
By blackace Go To PostStotts is super safe… someone better check on Fred Hoiberg tho
I thought Joeger and Vogel were safe.
I don't think they'll cut ties with Hoiberg that fast in Chicago. Roster shake up is what I would expect.
By etiolation Go To PostI thought Joeger and Vogel were safe.Actually I was shocked that Joeger made it this far
I don't think they'll cut ties with Hoiberg that fast in Chicago. Roster shake up is what I would expect.
By 33MillionDollarMen Go To PostMore coaches as fall guy nonsense. If I was in the NBA I'd just stay an assistant at this point. I mean yeah "they paid" but basically getting fired and having to move is stressful regardless. And if you got kids that finally found some solid structure and friends, it's even more shitty moving them again.
They're kids will deal. I would rather get paid. If these guys wanted structure, they could take a college job.
By Fenderputty Go To PostThey're kids will deal. I would rather get paid. If these guys wanted structure, they could take a college job.straight up
nobody is crying for avery johnson
Plus assistants get axed too. Once a new coach comes in and builds his own staff you're gone. I'd rather make 5X the money to be gone 5 months quicker.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostPlus assistants get axed too. Once a new coach comes in and builds his own staff you're gone. I'd rather make 5X the money to be gone 5 months quicker.Yep.
man the hornets exit interviews are way too sincere and shit
fuck all this great locker room stuff man ;_;
fuck all this great locker room stuff man ;_;
By Fenderputty Go To PostThey're kids will deal. I would rather get paid. If these guys wanted structure, they could take a college job.More like become a GM then you're set.
By 33MillionDollarMen Go To PostMore like become a GM then you're set.GMs don't make nearly the money... even if those guys don't finish their contract they get paid millions of dollars.
you sounding like Spree complaining about millions and family to feed
I'm not, everyone's grossly overpaid, I'm more disgusted though by the definitions of success or how quickly it's expected and just how much the coaches get blamed for what's also an FO issue. Means a lot of teams won't actually deal with the rotten part of the apple, so expect more stupid shit.
FOs definitely need to actually watch their team play. While W/L matters, that's not the only thing that you should judge a coach on. In no universe could you ever convince me that Byron Scott is good, or Mike Brown who has a .616 winning percentage thanks to LeBron.
Mike Brown is a decent defensive mind and with the greatest player at the time he did well...
Coaches that really suck are dudes like Dell Harris who was so bad he never even got 2nd chance with the Kings.
But shit runs down hill and coaches are the first to go... that's just how it goes
Coaches that really suck are dudes like Dell Harris who was so bad he never even got 2nd chance with the Kings.
But shit runs down hill and coaches are the first to go... that's just how it goes
But you're competing in a league where Phil pop and Riley have won 21 of the last 35 rings. You can't really afford to keep middling coaches around just because they're not Del Harris tier.
Again, these are bad firings, but in a competitive league, if there's a chance to improve, you take it
Again, these are bad firings, but in a competitive league, if there's a chance to improve, you take it
There is very little consistency with the logic of the firings though.
There's a thing running now where all the teams the Warriors have beat in the playoffs have fired their coach now. I don't think that's the sole cause, but you do worry if FO and owners are silly enough to think a coaching change will close a talent gap.
There's a thing running now where all the teams the Warriors have beat in the playoffs have fired their coach now. I don't think that's the sole cause, but you do worry if FO and owners are silly enough to think a coaching change will close a talent gap.
Funny you name those three because they all won a championship within their first two coaching seasons because they came into good situations. Spurs had .700 records prior to Pop being the coach. Robinson went down with an injury so they tanked and got Duncan. (his only losing season)
What's the benefit of these bottom feeding teams going through 3 coaches a year? No one is going to walk through that door and work magic. Let someone like a Stan Van Gundy/Mark Jackson build the team then bring in a Pat Riley/Steve Kerr to take that team to the next level.
What's the benefit of these bottom feeding teams going through 3 coaches a year? No one is going to walk through that door and work magic. Let someone like a Stan Van Gundy/Mark Jackson build the team then bring in a Pat Riley/Steve Kerr to take that team to the next level.
By Dark PhaZe Go To PostSimmons skipping the combine. Bender too.Can you blame either? They have little to gain and a lot to lose by doing it.
Sigh
Bender has no chance to move past Simmons or Ingram but is considered the third best prospect by most scouts. Simmons will just get his jump shot put under a magnifying glass and likely only hurt himself. Sucks but I get it.
By etiolation Go To PostThere is very little consistency with the logic of the firings though.
There's a thing running now where all the teams the Warriors have beat in the playoffs have fired their coach now. I don't think that's the sole cause, but you do worry if FO and owners are silly enough to think a coaching change will close a talent gap.
Short sighted franchises are short sighted.
I get it when it's clear a guy has maxed out his potential with a team like Jackson or Brooks to an extent. But guys like Vogel, Malone, Thibs, Joeger or back in the day Carlisle or Nuggets Karl?
That's when it says more to me about the GM and ownership then anything else. You have coaches that have proven themselves both in health and more importantly without it and you cut ties after often over-achieving? Either you are misdiagnosing the talent level of your team, which is itself an indictment, or you have unrealistic coaching expectations/poor coaching evaluation.
I am wondering did Mark Jackson and GS set this precedent where FO think that if they can improve the coach they are a season away from radical groups improvement. Yeah GS was extremely talented but it's the NBA about 10 teams a season can argue they are extremely talented. From the outside looking in the catalyst for that Chip and them being a monster was adding Kerr. The adjustments and his system took them to the next level.
In fact if the Cavs win it this year I expect coaches to have even shorter leashes. As the copycat league gets all the evidence it would need that "it's the coaches fault" and thus act accordingly and Fire coaches if they don't improve a lot yearly.
In fact if the Cavs win it this year I expect coaches to have even shorter leashes. As the copycat league gets all the evidence it would need that "it's the coaches fault" and thus act accordingly and Fire coaches if they don't improve a lot yearly.
I think what Detroit is doing is gonna be successful and will be the model to copy in the future. The coach should be the lead guy, not that they should be dealing with the specifics of contract negotiations and all that but they should set the direction of the franchise and the GM/scouts should be reporting to them. Kinda like in college.
By masud Go To PostI think what Detroit is doing is gonna be successful and will be the model to copy in the future. The coach should be the lead guy, not that they should be dealing with the specifics of contract negotiations and all that but they should set the direction of the franchise and the GM/scouts should be reporting to them. Kinda like in college.I think there can be some real value in it. I'll be the first to tell you that I thought Flip doing everything for the Wolves was going to be a disaster. Even though he ended up being a good GM, Flip later admitted that he didn't totally understand the value of some of his players until he came back to the bench. Sometimes you have to get that perspective.
Pop Riley and Phil and Kerr were rookie head coaches when they took over and pretty much right away established themselves as amazing coaches.
Meaning if you have second round/CF level talent and your coach isn't getting it done, it may make sense to try to find that gem of a coach. Of course you may just end up like the thunder or the Bulls this year too. And then sometimes you improve the coaching, but other shit happens.
VDN being replaced by Thibs and then Doc comes to mind. Clear upgrade in coaching but a combination of things led to ultimately disappointing results with them too. But the coaching changes were still worth it.
Like firing Brooks in OKC, firing Carlisle in Detroit, firing Mark Jackson. All of these ended up being good moves but only Detroit and Warriors got a clear upgrade replacement. OKC seems like a lateral move at best.
You gotta get the second part right. No one will say anything if Bird finds an improvement over Vogel, but he's got a lot of pressure to land that better coach.
Meaning if you have second round/CF level talent and your coach isn't getting it done, it may make sense to try to find that gem of a coach. Of course you may just end up like the thunder or the Bulls this year too. And then sometimes you improve the coaching, but other shit happens.
VDN being replaced by Thibs and then Doc comes to mind. Clear upgrade in coaching but a combination of things led to ultimately disappointing results with them too. But the coaching changes were still worth it.
Like firing Brooks in OKC, firing Carlisle in Detroit, firing Mark Jackson. All of these ended up being good moves but only Detroit and Warriors got a clear upgrade replacement. OKC seems like a lateral move at best.
You gotta get the second part right. No one will say anything if Bird finds an improvement over Vogel, but he's got a lot of pressure to land that better coach.
Vogel got the best out of his players, look at bums like Hibbert and Stephenson. A lot of those situations you're talking about, the pieces are already in place which isn't the case for a team like Indy. Aside from Paul George, that team is like one step above the garbage that Philly was putting out
if you can upgrade the coach to take you over the hump that's fine, but you need to get you to the hump first.
Even if Pacers makes it to the Finals or ECF, it wouldn't mean anything because I would bet my life no one walks through that door and takes this current Pacers team to the finals. You can't put the blame on Vogel for not being able to get his team to the Finals while the new coach did, but in the offseason you managed to acquire two great free agents.
if you can upgrade the coach to take you over the hump that's fine, but you need to get you to the hump first.
Even if Pacers makes it to the Finals or ECF, it wouldn't mean anything because I would bet my life no one walks through that door and takes this current Pacers team to the finals. You can't put the blame on Vogel for not being able to get his team to the Finals while the new coach did, but in the offseason you managed to acquire two great free agents.
By masud Go To PostI think what Detroit is doing is gonna be successful and will be the model to copy in the future. The coach should be the lead guy, not that they should be dealing with the specifics of contract negotiations and all that but they should set the direction of the franchise and the GM/scouts should be reporting to them. Kinda like in college.I mean thats kinda what the Spurs do in a way TBH. So its not really THAT new. The Spurs are built on that sort of participatory, coach centric model. Or at lest they have sort of transitioned into that over the years. Not quite the same but pretty close.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostPop Riley and Phil and Kerr were rookie head coaches when they took over and pretty much right away established themselves as amazing coaches.
Meaning if you have second round/CF level talent and your coach isn't getting it done, it may make sense to try to find that gem of a coach. Of course you may just end up like the thunder or the Bulls this year too. And then sometimes you improve the coaching, but other shit happens.
VDN being replaced by Thibs and then Doc comes to mind. Clear upgrade in coaching but a combination of things led to ultimately disappointing results with them too. But the coaching changes were still worth it.
Like firing Brooks in OKC, firing Carlisle in Detroit, firing Mark Jackson. All of these ended up being good moves but only Detroit and Warriors got a clear upgrade replacement. OKC seems like a lateral move at best.
You gotta get the second part right. No one will say anything if Bird finds an improvement over Vogel, but he's got a lot of pressure to land that better coach.
I think it makes sense when you can effectively eliminate other variables for why the season ended prematurely or nail down critical flaws in a coach that will always hinder his ability to chip without unlikely change. You could do that with Jackson and the Warriors. You could do that with Brooks in OKC. You could do that with VDN in Chicago. I would throw in Monty Williams for the Pelicans. I don't think you could honestly say that with Thibs, Vogel or Joeger(though this one is a bit different).
That to me is how I judge whether the firing of a head coach that has had success is justified or not on its own merits. For instance I might not be enamored with Gentry as a head coach, but if we end up firing Demps and then subsequently fire Gentry simply on a performance basis, I would consider it a pre-mature and bad firing.
People shit on Bird for the Rick Carlisle firing and talk about how great he became in Dallas but Rick Carlisle was fired from Det too and people loved the move because they chipped...
By blackace Go To PostPeople shit on Bird for the Rick Carlisle firing and talk about how great he became in Dallas but Rick Carlisle was fired from Det too and people loved the move because they chipped…Carlisle is one of those tricky ones to judge the more I think about it because he was a 50+ win coach in Detroit and was replaced by a future hall of famer. So of course when the dust clears people would be excited.
Probably shouldn't of included him earlier. With the Pacers though I am not quite as forgiving for firing hm for Jim O'Brian.
I hear that... But the problem with Carlisle was that he won 61 then became a 500 club... granted O'Neal kept getting hurt
By blackace Go To PostI hear that… But the problem with Carlisle was that he won 61 then became a 500 club… granted O'Neal kept getting hurtPalace Brawl was the season after 61-wins and it happened ten days into the season. You can't blame Carlisle on that one.
Then in 2005-06, his roster was...
By reilo Go To PostPalace Brawl was the season after 61-wins and it happened ten days into the season. You can't blame Carlisle on that one.I don't blame him for that but it didn't help his cause... Bird is also really big on if coaches "have control" of their team or not... And the Pacers needed to rebrand themselves
Then in 2005-06, his roster was…
I don't think there has been a coach in the league's history that could control Peace or TrillStack.