That's not what clutch was about.
Clutch was about whether or not you'd actually make that shot. Not if you'd take it.
lulz. did you grow up playing street ball in the rough streets of belair or something, because that's not what clutch means.
Vaggy accused Abbott of changing the definition of clutch, but he was the one wrong about it the entire time lmao
Let's be honest. Whether you agree with him or not, Abbott sucks.
Vaggy should really stop though. The Kobe defense has gotten old 3 years ago.
Vaggy should really stop though. The Kobe defense has gotten old 3 years ago.
But for decades clutch meant - have you done it, have you won chips, are you unstoppable one on one, can you get a good shot off, are you fearless, have you made game winners, etc. Clutch wasn't about just %, it was about psyche, and skill level, and accomplishment.That's not what clutch was about.
Clutch was about whether or not you'd actually make that shot. Not if you'd take it.
Whether or not you'd make it was about the things I discussed. No one looked at fg% during last 30 seconds. As I said, bird, Hakeem, Reggie, jerry west are all considered clutch but no one knows their fg% in final moments off the top of their head.
If I ask you, is X a good free throw shooter, you probably know his approximate ft%. Reggie was somewhere between 85-90. But if I ask you if Reggie was clutch there is no one on earth who knows his fg% in the final 5 minutes in games with a 3 point margin of the top of their head. Because we never thought of clutch as defined by efficiency. It was about skill, attitude, and accomplishment. In the same way a successful businessman isn't someone who's never failed, but someone who's Been successful time after time. You may disagree, but that's how clutch was perceived for decades.
On a broader scale the problem is, to put it another way. The Analytics movement essentially argues that math skills with no significant knowledge of the thing it's being applied to, makes one an authority. I disagree.
With the exception of a smalllll handful of people, no one who's pure Analytics seems to me like they have an in depth knowledge of the game, or even a cursory knowledge of the game. And I think it's absurd, and only real in the age of fantasy sports that people think looking at data that applies to something is enough to replace knowledge of that actual thing.
"No way you can instantly remember something you can't just make up on the spot to suit your argument!"
what has kobe even done in the clutch?
dude has like 4 clutch moments in the playoffs, all from back when he was Frobe. the rest is all meaningless regular season games or team usa white vs team usa blue type shit
dude has like 4 clutch moments in the playoffs, all from back when he was Frobe. the rest is all meaningless regular season games or team usa white vs team usa blue type shit
ESPN is pretty down on Kyrie:Defense matters and he doesn't play any. Mid-20s does seem fair.
From #8 best player in the league a year ago…
what has kobe even done in the clutch?
dude has like 4 clutch moments in the playoffs, all from back when he was Frobe. the rest is all meaningless regular season games or team usa white vs team usa blue type shit
you should probably do your research before you make statements that show you haven't been paying attention for the better part of a decade.
As usual Vag twists himself in knots to spin another anti-intellectual tale that vindicates his Kobe mythology.
You just told us that stats don't matter when it comes to clutch stats, so why would he need to look anything up?
You just told us that stats don't matter when it comes to clutch stats, so why would he need to look anything up?
are you super dense, or just pretending to be?
You just told us that stats don't matter when it comes to clutch stats, so why would he need to look anything up?
are you super dense, or just pretending to be?
You just said..
Whether or not you'd make it was about the things I discussed. No one looked at fg% during last 30 seconds. As I said, bird, Hakeem, Reggie, jerry west are all considered clutch but no one knows their fg% in final moments off the top of their head.
If I ask you, is X a good free throw shooter, you probably know his approximate ft%. Reggie was somewhere between 85-90. But if I ask you if Reggie was clutch there is no one on earth who knows his fg% in the final 5 minutes in games with a 3 point margin of the top of their head. Because we never thought of clutch as defined by efficiency. It was about skill, attitude, and accomplishment.
Your argument was all about perception. His perception is that Kobe isn't clutch. What does he need to research, exactly?
Name that player. He averaged 20PPG+ last season.Damn, I had to cheat. With that midrange red, I thought Aldridge, but he doesn't shoot 3s. Then I though, Love, maybe, but apparently he doesn't shoot it from midrange that well.
Aldridge's heat map from the mid-range is all to the left. Love doesn't even take any mid-range jumpers. You're on the right track, though.
You just told us that stats don't matter when it comes to clutch stats, so why would he need to look anything up?
are you super dense, or just pretending to be?
You just said..Whether or not you'd make it was about the things I discussed. No one looked at fg% during last 30 seconds. As I said, bird, Hakeem, Reggie, jerry west are all considered clutch but no one knows their fg% in final moments off the top of their head.
If I ask you, is X a good free throw shooter, you probably know his approximate ft%. Reggie was somewhere between 85-90. But if I ask you if Reggie was clutch there is no one on earth who knows his fg% in the final 5 minutes in games with a 3 point margin of the top of their head. Because we never thought of clutch as defined by efficiency. It was about skill, attitude, and accomplishment.
Your argument was all about perception. His perception is that Kobe isn't clutch. What does he need to research, exactly?
My argument wasn't about perception. It was about accomplishment/skill level vs. efficiency. I keep using FG% for a reason. 28 game winners is also a stat. 5 championships is also a stat. My argument is about defining clutch purely as efficiency.
Saying a businessman who's 2 for 2 on successful business is a better businessman than someone who's 30 for 60 I would argue is an erroneous statement.
Because it's easy to prove that Kobe has had lots of clutch playoff/big game moments if you've been watching him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhpVE5Yfvhc
rewatch that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ-fy54a-3U
and at the 3:17 mark of that.
Here's a handful I found in a few minutes. There's also a game tying shot and a game winning shot in Phx game 4 in 2006 too.
I'd love to know which advanced stats you are railing against that don't look at both game winners versus attempts and < 5 minute stats and a myriad of other factors. That data is available, and all of that data compares favorably to Kobe but that doesn't make him GOAT or anything, even if you account for his higher USG% and FGA.
You're cherry-picking.
That's the great things about the modern stats movement, noone has to focus on a single statistic anymore.
You're cherry-picking.
That's the great things about the modern stats movement, noone has to focus on a single statistic anymore.
I'd love to know which advanced stats you are railing against that don't look at both game winners versus attempts and < 5 minute stats and a myriad of other factors. That data is available, and all of that data compares favorably to Kobe but that doesn't make him GOAT or anything, even if you account for his higher USG% and FGA.
You're cherry-picking.
That's the great things about the modern stats movement, noone has to focus on a single statistic anymore.
Kobe's converting at a higher clip in every individual area with the same TS% and a near same eFG% and the only reason Lebron has higher overall efficiency numbers is because he can get to the restricted area more often. Which sure as hell isn't a definition of clutch, it's just his superior physical ability and that he plays the 4 in crunch time instead of the 2.
This is 2012. Last healthy Kobe season with Lebron in his prime at his undisputed best.
Hypocrite.
Never claimed he was the GOAT. Just illustrated that there are plenty of data points that are favorable to Kobe if I wanted to cherry pick
Anyway, back to the original point. Abbott wrote a trash article as a petty attempt of retaliation to being called an idiot and all the usual Laker haters like Brandi and Red Blaster and TheKad jumped with glee at it because Abbott knows his audience.
Also, that heatmap is Dirk? Dude is fucking nuts. He's got to be in the conversation for second best power forward of all time.
But for decades clutch meant - have you done it, have you won chips, are you unstoppable one on one, can you get a good shot off, are you fearless, have you made game winners, etc. Clutch wasn't about just %, it was about psyche, and skill level, and accomplishment.That's not what clutch was about.
Clutch was about whether or not you'd actually make that shot. Not if you'd take it.
Whether or not you'd make it was about the things I discussed. No one looked at fg% during last 30 seconds. As I said, bird, Hakeem, Reggie, jerry west are all considered clutch but no one knows their fg% in final moments off the top of their head.
If I ask you, is X a good free throw shooter, you probably know his approximate ft%. Reggie was somewhere between 85-90. But if I ask you if Reggie was clutch there is no one on earth who knows his fg% in the final 5 minutes in games with a 3 point margin of the top of their head. Because we never thought of clutch as defined by efficiency. It was about skill, attitude, and accomplishment. In the same way a successful businessman isn't someone who's never failed, but someone who's Been successful time after time. You may disagree, but that's how clutch was perceived for decades.
On a broader scale the problem is, to put it another way. The Analytics movement essentially argues that math skills with no significant knowledge of the thing it's being applied to, makes one an authority. I disagree.
With the exception of a smalllll handful of people, no one who's pure Analytics seems to me like they have an in depth knowledge of the game, or even a cursory knowledge of the game. And I think it's absurd, and only real in the age of fantasy sports that people think looking at data that applies to something is enough to replace knowledge of that actual thing.
Just because people are more educated about the actual statistic doesn't change what the criteria was.
No one would JR Smith clutch, but i'm sure he's put that shot up a lot of times cause he's JR Smith.
Clutch is about actually making the shot. Not any of that other rubbish.
There is a perception that some people are clutch who really aren't. See line 1.
But for decades clutch meant - have you done it, have you won chips, are you unstoppable one on one, can you get a good shot off, are you fearless, have you made game winners, etc. Clutch wasn't about just %, it was about psyche, and skill level, and accomplishment.That's not what clutch was about.
Clutch was about whether or not you'd actually make that shot. Not if you'd take it.
Whether or not you'd make it was about the things I discussed. No one looked at fg% during last 30 seconds. As I said, bird, Hakeem, Reggie, jerry west are all considered clutch but no one knows their fg% in final moments off the top of their head.
If I ask you, is X a good free throw shooter, you probably know his approximate ft%. Reggie was somewhere between 85-90. But if I ask you if Reggie was clutch there is no one on earth who knows his fg% in the final 5 minutes in games with a 3 point margin of the top of their head. Because we never thought of clutch as defined by efficiency. It was about skill, attitude, and accomplishment. In the same way a successful businessman isn't someone who's never failed, but someone who's Been successful time after time. You may disagree, but that's how clutch was perceived for decades.
On a broader scale the problem is, to put it another way. The Analytics movement essentially argues that math skills with no significant knowledge of the thing it's being applied to, makes one an authority. I disagree.
With the exception of a smalllll handful of people, no one who's pure Analytics seems to me like they have an in depth knowledge of the game, or even a cursory knowledge of the game. And I think it's absurd, and only real in the age of fantasy sports that people think looking at data that applies to something is enough to replace knowledge of that actual thing.
Just because people are more educated about the actual statistic doesn't change what the criteria was.
No one would JR Smith clutch, but i'm sure he's put that shot up a lot of times cause he's JR Smith.
Clutch is about actually making the shot. Not any of that other rubbish.
There is a perception that some people are clutch who really aren't. See line 1.
Clutch is about a lot of things. Some guy who can hit the occasional open jumper isn't in the same stratosphere as a guy who can put a team on his back and score 15-25 points in a quarter of a tight and important playoff game.
There are too many factors that go into whether or not someone is clutch, and how clutch they are. I don't think that people are more educated about basketball at all. I think they have more data points to choose from, but less actual understanding.
I bet if you took the average die hard NBA fan and asked them to give you 5 data points about his team or his players, he'd be able to. But you took that same guy and gave him a whiteboard and told him to draw 5 common offensive sets his favorite team runs, and he won't have a clue despite seeing it on replay multiple times every game. It takes a hell of a lot more know how to deconstruct game tape than it does to read shot charts that synergy sports produces.
I don't mind people who really analyze advanced metrics. I mind people who couldn't draw up 3 sets of the Princeton trying to argue they know a damn thing about the game of basketball. In the same way that knowing the specs on your iPhone doesn't mean you know jackshit about engineering or design.
LFMAO @ the Stans in this thread. You really think that was a "hatchet job" from a "Laker hater"? That article is wall to wall quotes from people in the Laker organization and people who do direct business with them. That was the Lakers themselves calling Kobe out for destroying the franchise to feed his empty PPG stat. Nobody's caving in to Henry Abbott's high-intensity journalistic pressure, that article only exists because the Lakers want it to. And the reason he got so many people saying the same thing is because it's so obviously true.
Isn't it always?
wft is this the Kobe Thread or something?
Isn't it always?
LFMAO @ the Stans in this thread. You really think that was a "hatchet job" from a "Laker hater"? That article is wall to wall quotes from people in the Laker organization and people who do direct business with them. That was the Lakers themselves calling Kobe out for destroying the franchise to feed his empty PPG stat. Nobody's caving in to Henry Abbott's high-intensity journalistic pressure, that article only exists because the Lakers want it to. And the reason he got so many people saying the same thing is because it's so obviously true.wft is this the Kobe Thread or something?
Isn't it always?
He has one unnamed Lakers source. It's not "people" in the organization at all. It's agents making claims and taking things out of context like Ramon Sessions being quoted as saying it was "different" playing with Kobe.
PG has already come out and said the article was bogus. Sessions left for much more money and a longer deal. He's blaming Kobe for the reason Lebron and Melo didn't sign there. Really? Lebron was never coming to LA unless their was a championship core in place, and Melo only really considered LA for the opportunity to play with Kobe.
Pau left because the team was done and he was tired of the incessant trade rumors for 4 years. He felt backstabbed by them.
“I think Phil Jackson started that that feud. It happened many times that after team practice he would say, ‘Kobe said this about Shaq, and Shaq said that about Kobe’ … We couldn’t believe how could that happen, because just the day before we saw them together, jumping on one another. … It was blown out of proportion by the media.”
I'm sure there are players who don't want to play with Kobe. I'm also sure the organization isn't lamenting they have to deal with him and thinking he's blowing up the organization from the inside. Those are two totally different statements. That article is a piss poor joke that only works because, as I said, selling the "Kobe is an asshole" narrative is easy to a large swath of the population.
3:17 he doesn't even touch the ball
stats don't matter*
*until it works for my agenda
blind as a bat. You're still wrong and I showed lots of "not Frobe" playoff moments.
Sessions has been somewhat evasive as to why, but he has been quoted as saying it was "definitely different" playing with Bryant.
http://www.faniq.com/blog/Ramon-Sessions-Is-Happy-With-His-Choice-to-Leave-the-Lakers-Blog-56354
Here's the quote in it's context...
"As a point guard I always like to know what's going on with everybody. I was out there second-guessing myself like, 'Is he really going to be there?' Or, 'What spot will he be in?' It was different because I really didn't practice much with them."
and here's the reason he left
"It was one of those situations I looked at like, 'If I do come back what if they trade me?' There were talks about getting Deron [Williams]. They always wanted the bigger-named guy. What if I get traded to a team and it's my contract year? It was one of those things that I can't say if I opted in, [Nash] wouldn't have come. They still might have tried to get him. You just never know."
See, normally, you guys would be objective enough to call a trash hatchet jobs a trash hatchet job. But because it reinforces your normal pre-conceived notions about Kobe, and because you're just a troll, you defend it blindly.
LFMAO @ the Stans in this thread. You really think that was a "hatchet job" from a "Laker hater"? That article is wall to wall quotes from people in the Laker organization and people who do direct business with them. That was the Lakers themselves calling Kobe out for destroying the franchise to feed his empty PPG stat. Nobody's caving in to Henry Abbott's high-intensity journalistic pressure, that article only exists because the Lakers want it to. And the reason he got so many people saying the same thing is because it's so obviously true.
You are starting from a premise that he has real sources and/or they are accurate based on what, exactly? He's not a former beat reporter like his colleagues (Stein, Windhorst, Shelbourne), he's a blogger who blogs mostly about advanced stats which is fine but I'm not sure how this gets him any sources, especially in the Lakers which is one of the hardest sports franchises to get sources. He's been accused of fake quoting for years, as well.
Take the Ramon Sessions part in his piece which basically blames Kobe for Ramon not re-signing which he claims comes from an "anonymous source". Not only did this not make much sense as I recalled of the media reporting at the time but it has been discredited by numerous beat reporters. In fact, one of those beat reporters revealed his source at the time and that source was, get this, Ramon Sessions. Sessions, back at the time this was going on, told him the Lakers didn't even call him or his agent to offer a contract which we later learned was the result of them pursuing Nash (whom they got on July 4th, mere days into free agency!). The entire bit is made up bullshit.
If Abbott has a source, the source is lying to him. If not, he's making shit up. Even Paul George denounced the report (which as I explained earlier, that bit made no sense at all).
My main problems with Abbott's article isn't that he criticizes Kobe. That's fine. My problem is some of the stuff is pure bullshit and can be verified as such, ala the Ramon Sessions thing, and that he attributes all blame on the Lakers state on Kobe. He lays zero blame on the CP3 debacle, lays zero blame on the changing CBA, lays zero blame on the team trading draft picks for cash, lays zero blame on Jerry Buss' death, lays zero blame on the team acquiring almost no young talent.
I mean, how do you write an entire article explaining the current state of the Lakers and not mention the CP3 fiasco?'s contribution to it? How is there any journalistic integrity there? Is Kobe an asshole? Should he be earning less money? Of course. But these things aren't why the Lakers are not good today. It has hurt at the margins, but it is absurd to lay most, let alone all blame on him.
Abbott is about selling stories, getting clicks. He is writing mostly fan-fiction. At least his advanced stats arguments are within a realm of argument, not made up bullshit and one sided petty drivel.
If the Mavs can get halfway-decent PG play they'll be scary on offense this season.
Name that player. He averaged 20PPG+ last season.
Parsons' and Ellis' heat maps:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parsoch01/shooting/2014/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ellismo01/shooting/2014/
CP3 trade gets nixed - Kobe's fault.
Nash breaks his leg and never recovers 2 games in - Kobe's fault
Bynum's knees deteriorate to nothing - Kobe's fault
Odom has to be traded because he's hurt over the CP3 trade - Kobe's fault
Team has no draft picks for the next few years trying to get Nash - Kobe's fault
Team hires 3 bad coaches - Kobe's fault
Jesus, Lebron, and Melo won't sign with the Lakers despite having much better offers elsewhere - Kobe's fault.
Kobe is destroying team from within - it's so "obviously true"
Nash breaks his leg and never recovers 2 games in - Kobe's fault
Bynum's knees deteriorate to nothing - Kobe's fault
Odom has to be traded because he's hurt over the CP3 trade - Kobe's fault
Team has no draft picks for the next few years trying to get Nash - Kobe's fault
Team hires 3 bad coaches - Kobe's fault
Jesus, Lebron, and Melo won't sign with the Lakers despite having much better offers elsewhere - Kobe's fault.
Kobe is destroying team from within - it's so "obviously true"
Brown being fired, D'Antoni being hired AND D'Antoni being fired, and now Scott being hired can all be attributed to Kobe.
Hey LFK, got a meme for ya... Let's go!
Kobe is so bad that Phil Jackson decided he'd rather work for the Knicks.
Kobe is so bad that Phil Jackson decided he'd rather work for the Knicks.
Brown being fired, D'Antoni being hired AND D'Antoni being fired, and now Scott being hired can all be attributed to Kobe.
He's been pretty clear he wanted Phil or Shaw from the get go. And he wanted Phil over D'Antoni. Brown was fired because he lost something like 14 consecutive games if you factor in the end of the Thunder series the year before, pre-season, and regular season. He was fired because the team had a win now window.
There are two things that can be blamed on Kobe, and even there, only partially. 1) he took the super high offer they gave him, which limits their ability to sign max FA's and 2) Dwight leaving.
But Dwight leaving was also about D'Antoni, and Kobe's Achilles tear, and Nash's broken body. And Houston had a better overall situation anyway.
3:17 he doesn't even touch the ball
stats don't matter*
*until it works for my agenda
blind as a bat. You're still wrong and I showed lots of "not Frobe" playoff moments.
would be clearer but you had to select a video that was filmed with a potato
3:17 he doesn't even touch the ball
stats don't matter*
*until it works for my agenda
blind as a bat. You're still wrong and I showed lots of "not Frobe" playoff moments.
would be clearer but you had to select a video that was filmed with a potato
It was the only one I could find, if you could find a higher res one, rewatch it. He hits the ball as he's swinging through. It's why the trajectory of the ball shoots out of Pierce's hand before it hits the ground. Physics, how does it work.
In any case, this is a dumb debate but you can see that the ball is glued to Pierce's hand in my picture, and there is separation in yours. Kobe hit the ball as he was swinging through, and by the time you screenshotted your picture, the ball was already flying out of Pierce's hand.
But for decades clutch meant - have you done it, have you won chips, are you unstoppable one on one, can you get a good shot off, are you fearless, have you made game winners, etc. Clutch wasn't about just %, it was about psyche, and skill level, and accomplishment.That's not what clutch was about.
Clutch was about whether or not you'd actually make that shot. Not if you'd take it.
Whether or not you'd make it was about the things I discussed. No one looked at fg% during last 30 seconds. As I said, bird, Hakeem, Reggie, jerry west are all considered clutch but no one knows their fg% in final moments off the top of their head.
If I ask you, is X a good free throw shooter, you probably know his approximate ft%. Reggie was somewhere between 85-90. But if I ask you if Reggie was clutch there is no one on earth who knows his fg% in the final 5 minutes in games with a 3 point margin of the top of their head. Because we never thought of clutch as defined by efficiency. It was about skill, attitude, and accomplishment. In the same way a successful businessman isn't someone who's never failed, but someone who's Been successful time after time. You may disagree, but that's how clutch was perceived for decades.
On a broader scale the problem is, to put it another way. The Analytics movement essentially argues that math skills with no significant knowledge of the thing it's being applied to, makes one an authority. I disagree.
With the exception of a smalllll handful of people, no one who's pure Analytics seems to me like they have an in depth knowledge of the game, or even a cursory knowledge of the game. And I think it's absurd, and only real in the age of fantasy sports that people think looking at data that applies to something is enough to replace knowledge of that actual thing.
Just because people are more educated about the actual statistic doesn't change what the criteria was.
No one would JR Smith clutch, but i'm sure he's put that shot up a lot of times cause he's JR Smith.
Clutch is about actually making the shot. Not any of that other rubbish.
There is a perception that some people are clutch who really aren't. See line 1.
Clutch is about a lot of things. Some guy who can hit the occasional open jumper isn't in the same stratosphere as a guy who can put a team on his back and score 15-25 points in a quarter of a tight and important playoff game.
There are too many factors that go into whether or not someone is clutch, and how clutch they are. I don't think that people are more educated about basketball at all. I think they have more data points to choose from, but less actual understanding.
I bet if you took the average die hard NBA fan and asked them to give you 5 data points about his team or his players, he'd be able to. But you took that same guy and gave him a whiteboard and told him to draw 5 common offensive sets his favorite team runs, and he won't have a clue despite seeing it on replay multiple times every game. It takes a hell of a lot more know how to deconstruct game tape than it does to read shot charts that synergy sports produces.
I don't mind people who really analyze advanced metrics. I mind people who couldn't draw up 3 sets of the Princeton trying to argue they know a damn thing about the game of basketball. In the same way that knowing the specs on your iPhone doesn't mean you know jackshit about engineering or design.
LIterally nothing to do with being clutch.
:oops:You should see the spike we saw yesterday for pageviews. Gonna be even better today.
Y'all are welcome.
didn't vag say he was getting an mba or something
i thought that would keep him busy for a while
I thought he was going to be a PhD in religious studies.
So that his thesis could have been on the One True God: Kobe Bean Bryant.
If I don't get into Econ grad school, I'll feel really bad about making fun of Vag for any academic roadblocks though and be embarrassed so I should probably stop on this one...
