By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostI was with you until about 3 weeks ago. I would still be fine if he wasn't fired today. But after watching 3 weeks of basketball where my repeated thought process was "wtf is this team doing? They're running their offense like they have no discernible fucking clue what to do". I wasn't shocked in the least. In reality, few people noticed because it's so obscure to people. But it was the stupidest fucking way to run that offense.bad players are bad for a reason. being uncoachable at the nba level is why most of those guys are journeyman and misfits.
The defensively slipping was equally problematic.
The team regressed pretty badly and I'm not sure that 50 games in, that's acceptable. You don't go from routinely having double digit leads against the better teams in the league to falling into massive holes time and time again without errors in execution and those were clear as day.
Phil talks a lot about mindfulness training. Among other things, the whole "being in the present moment" notion is supposed to be to allow you to instantly recognize the situation and adapt. It was taking them 3 quarters to figure out what worked and what didn't when the matchup advantages were apparent and player strengths and weaknesses were too. They lost a bunch of close games, but that was more on the opponents letting their foot off the gas pedal than the Knicks executing.
and its even worse when you don't have functional guard play at all
and they should've never lead any game by double digits lol. this is what i mean, that winning in the beginning of the season was literally the best case scenario for the knicks season as a whole. fisher had bums prepared better than established teams and role players around the league. that is a huge achievement for a young coach. to dismiss it all because sasha vujacic has better awareness than afflalo is a joke - and something that the GM needs to own up to for not giving his coach the tools necessary to achieve the desired on-court product, or at least a reasonable timeline to make that a possibility.
i don't know how you're supposed to adapt to jose calderon as your starting pg in 2016. no coach can do that.
Plus we all know that Woj drops bombs because he doesn't have access. I was gleeful as fuck at all the Woj tear down articles about Lebron from 2009-forever until I realized the pattern. Dude has no foothold in the Phil mechanism. Shelbourne, and Kevin Ding, and some of those LA guys do. Begley does. But Woj doesn't.
I get the coaching tree is thin shit. I get the "let anyone come in and coach and run any system they please" shit too. I understand that sentiment. But that's applicable to 29 other teams, why can't one team run a system his GM likes? It's not like Gentry and Karl and Donovan have exactly lit up the league by bringing in different systems to those franchises. For the love of God, everything isn't a duality between Triangle and PnR. The narrative of "advanced offenses" has dumbed down fan bases to ridiculous levels when it comes to that kind of stuff.
I get the coaching tree is thin shit. I get the "let anyone come in and coach and run any system they please" shit too. I understand that sentiment. But that's applicable to 29 other teams, why can't one team run a system his GM likes? It's not like Gentry and Karl and Donovan have exactly lit up the league by bringing in different systems to those franchises. For the love of God, everything isn't a duality between Triangle and PnR. The narrative of "advanced offenses" has dumbed down fan bases to ridiculous levels when it comes to that kind of stuff.
By reilo Go To PostWoj has no access? Bro, come on.
Not in the Phil management system as is. Just as he has practically no access to Lebron and his close friends. That's Windhorst.
Windhorst didn't even break Lebron coming back to Cleveland, he's a Lebron PR mouthpiece. That's not access, that's shitty journalism.
By reilo Go To PostI guess Fisher doesn't know how to coach the triangle as well as some forum posters would.
Fisher was coaching the Triangle amazingly well during that stretch. I was posting articles and long ass posts about it complete with Video clips. The regression since then is obvious. That doesn't mean I'd coach it better, it just means there is a clear cut regression that shouldn't be happening.
By reilo Go To PostWindhorst didn't even break Lebron coming back to Cleveland, he's a Lebron PR mouthpiece. That's not access, that's shitty journalism.
Windhorst polishing Lebron's balls for a sliver of access is besides the point.
By PSYCH! Go To PostCan't Link to streams kibzI can't find where but you can PM me on GAF
Activate PMs in your user profile Ph33nix
By ph33nix Go To PostI can't find where but you can PM me on GAFEarly Access
By ph33nix Go To PostI can't find where but you can PM me on GAFuser profile--> Early Access
You should already have a message in your inbox from me.
Besides which. NO ONE was giving Fisher that job and that pay anywhere. Phil Jackson gave Fisher a job and 25 million in a world where he had no chance in hell of getting that position in any other franchise. If I'm Fisher I'm not exactly happy, but I know that I walked into a 25 million dollar payday and an opportunity I had no other way of getting.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostBesides which. NO ONE was giving Fisher that job and that pay anywhere. Phil Jackson gave Fisher a job and 25 million in a world where he had no chance in hell of getting that position in any other franchise. If I'm Fisher I'm not exactly happy, but I know that I walked into a 25 million dollar payday and an opportunity I had no other way of getting.that's a shitty spin.
It was shitty when you said it earlier and it's still shitty now
Woj's sources are mostly agents who he trades hit/opinion pieces they dictate for first dibs on player movement and coach movement. He's connected, but outside of his scoops, most of what he writes in long form reads like snarky native advertising.
This is the worst firing of the year, easily.
Outside of Melo (when he's not already packing it in for the year) and a rookie, what was there to do? Afflalo and Rolo are your next best players. A lesser coach would've got himself fired on purpose.
Outside of Melo (when he's not already packing it in for the year) and a rookie, what was there to do? Afflalo and Rolo are your next best players. A lesser coach would've got himself fired on purpose.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostBesides which. NO ONE was giving Fisher that job and that pay anywhere. Phil Jackson gave Fisher a job and 25 million in a world where he had no chance in hell of getting that position in any other franchise. If I'm Fisher I'm not exactly happy, but I know that I walked into a 25 million dollar payday and an opportunity I had no other way of getting.
Like sand through the hour glass
Fisher should take a page from Phil and just scorch his players in the press.
Coaches: Fall Guys of the Year
Coaches: Fall Guys of the Year
By DY_nasty Go To PostThis is the worst firing of the year, easily.
Outside of Melo (when he's not already packing it in for the year) and a rookie, what was there to do? Afflalo and Rolo are your next best players. A lesser coach would've got himself fired on purpose.
Again, I know there's a lot of disagreement with me on this forum. But correctly utilizing the Triangle and creating a scheme to stop opponents 3 point shooting was going to let this team over-achieve. I had a lot more ambitious hopes for this team than most folks. I don't think Rambis is going to do a whole lot better, but I do think that proper execution of the offense, which the team was doing for large stretches combined with solid D will allow them to win a good chunk of games.
Williams wasn't succeeding in the system as a fluke. Giving a guy the ball at the pinch post with proper spacing around him allows him to get to the basket with a single dribble. Dude shot 62% at the rim this season and drew fouls at a super high rate. Problem is, he shot only 40 more shots at the rim as he did at the 3 point line, where he's a 22% shooter.
When you have a situation where the offense provides the answers, and instead you move Williams to the 3 point line and put Sasha at the pinch post, that's piss poor coaching.
Not to mention, look at all the lob opportunities the offense provides
http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2015/11/24/9790758/triangle-offense-breakdown-explanations-stuff-part-4-lobs-lobs-lobs
Williams used to get one or two of those a game, those completely dried up during this stretch.
That's all just the misuse of Williams. I can write a similar stretch for the like 8 other guys.
Fisher isn't even a fall guy. NY was well aware before the season started that playoffs were not a possibility. This is just dumb.
https://streamable.com/y6z9
https://streamable.com/r3g2
This play should be an automatic for Melo and Williams when they bring the ball up, even if you don't get the easy bucket you can still get into your offense and operate naturally. I don't remember a single time I saw them run this shit. Not once.
I mentioned over and over and over again that all the Triangle Single Doubles with Afflalo were poorly executed. Guys weren't actually making contact with Afflalo's man on those screens to give him the separation to catch and shoot. And in times where the defense switched big to small, they weren't going into the natural transition of posting up RoLo or Porzingis with Afflalo's guy. It just got bad, it got to the point where they weren't getting any of their easy baskets and they were having to force everything and make tons of contested shots just to score.
https://streamable.com/r3g2
This play should be an automatic for Melo and Williams when they bring the ball up, even if you don't get the easy bucket you can still get into your offense and operate naturally. I don't remember a single time I saw them run this shit. Not once.
I mentioned over and over and over again that all the Triangle Single Doubles with Afflalo were poorly executed. Guys weren't actually making contact with Afflalo's man on those screens to give him the separation to catch and shoot. And in times where the defense switched big to small, they weren't going into the natural transition of posting up RoLo or Porzingis with Afflalo's guy. It just got bad, it got to the point where they weren't getting any of their easy baskets and they were having to force everything and make tons of contested shots just to score.
By DY_nasty Go To PostFisher isn't even a fall guy. NY was well aware before the season started that playoffs were not a possibility. This is just dumb.I dunno some people were sippin' the koolaid round these parts when they were winning.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostAgain, I know there's a lot of disagreement with me on this forum. But correctly utilizing the Triangle and creating a scheme to stop opponents 3 point shooting was going to let this team over-achieve. I had a lot more ambitious hopes for this team than most folks. I don't think Rambis is going to do a whole lot better, but I do think that proper execution of the offense, which the team was doing for large stretches combined with solid D will allow them to win a good chunk of games.There isn't a breakdown on the internet that will convince me that any breathing coach will feel comfortable with Williams and Sasha on the court at the same time in 2016.
Williams wasn't succeeding in the system as a fluke. Giving a guy the ball at the pinch post with proper spacing around him allows him to get to the basket with a single dribble. Dude shot 62% at the rim this season and drew fouls at a super high rate. Problem is, he shot only 40 more shots at the rim as he did at the 3 point line, where he's a 22% shooter.
When you have a situation where the offense provides the answers, and instead you move Williams to the 3 point line and put Sasha at the pinch post, that's piss poor coaching.
Not to mention, look at all the lob opportunities the offense provides
http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2015/11/24/9790758/triangle-offense-breakdown-explanations-stuff-part-4-lobs-lobs-lobs
Williams used to get one or two of those a game, those completely dried up during this stretch.
That's all just the misuse of Williams. I can write a similar stretch for the like 8 other guys.
If making Derrick Williams look like a real NBA player is the new bar, then a lot of coaches may as well tap out and take over some D2 directional school where they can keep their job as long they upset an ACC team every 4 years.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To Posthttps://streamable.com/y6z9They won 21 games and were on pace for more than everyone predicted. Of course Fisher isn't perfect, he's a baby coach. There is no such thing as a perfect coach. And when you give any coach several impossible hurdles to cross at the same time, they're gonna look like shit for a while.
https://streamable.com/r3g2
This play should be an automatic for Melo and Williams when they bring the ball up, even if you don't get the easy bucket you can still get into your offense and operate naturally. I don't remember a single time I saw them run this shit. Not once.
I mentioned over and over and over again that all the Triangle Single Doubles with Afflalo were poorly executed. Guys weren't actually making contact with Afflalo's man on those screens to give him the separation to catch and shoot. And in times where the defense switched big to small, they weren't going into the natural transition of posting up RoLo or Porzingis with Afflalo's guy. It just got bad, it got to the point where they weren't getting any of their easy baskets and they were having to force everything and make tons of contested shots just to score.
The fact that they started the season off well at all should've been enough for the year. You know, the same year where 35 wins was an impossibility. You don't just invest in a guy like this then scapegoat him.
By DY_nasty Go To PostThere isn't a breakdown on the internet that will convince me that any breathing coach will feel comfortable with Williams and Sasha on the court at the same time in 2016.
If making Derrick Williams look like a real NBA player is the new bar, then a lot of coaches may as well tap out and take over some D2 directional school where they can keep their job as long they upset an ACC team every 4 years.
I'm fine with all of this. I'm fine with going - ok it's a rough patch, long term let him grow. I'm just saying that it wasn't just the losses, the team regressed visibly in their execution so I understand the firing.
You can say that the talent isn't there to win a bunch of games, but when the team is executing, then all of a sudden stops executing for a stretch where you also stop playing defense and you also lose 9 of 10. I see the logic behind the decision. I'd be cool with Fisher getting 32 wins and finishing out the year, and I'm cool with him getting fired and having the offense more effectively executed.
There was that bit in the Kevin Ding article where Phil would write long write-ups and Derek would respond with "got it" and then nothing would change. Or Phil would ask for the coaches to come in on an off day and watch film and Derek wouldn't notify half the coaches. In the midst of that, when you're not executing the basics anymore it gets troubling.
One of these is from Derrick Williams on the Knicks. If you can tell me which one and not guess then I will give you a cookie, otherwise you are full of shit:
By blackace Go To PostWilliams should be unstoppable… I have read everything now
He shouldn't be unstoppable, where did I use that word, he, like everyone else, should be properly used. The offense has interchangeable pieces, but putting RoLo in the corner is dumb. Putting Williams at the 3 point line and Sasha in the pinch post is equally dumb. Possessions matter, you can't brainfart your way through games by just mindlessly getting in position and running around.
By reilo Go To PostOne of these is from Derrick Williams on the Knicks. If you can tell me which one and not guess then I will give you a cookie, otherwise you are full of shit:
The second one. But I looked it up already.
So you looked it up and the conclusion you came to was that Fisher wasn't a good enough coach because he couldn't make Derrick Williams not be the same shitty player he's been his entire NBA career?
By reilo Go To PostSo you looked it up and the conclusion you came to was that Fisher wasn't a good enough coach because he couldn't make Derrick Williams not be the same shitty player he's been his entire NBA career?
Fisher wasn't using the same system everyone else was where Derrick Williams either stood at the 3 point line or ran in transition. Fisher had designed ways built in to get Williams a lot more rim looks than most other offenses he played for. He didn't utilize them nearly as much as he should have, especially in the last week and a half - no.
Maybe, just maybe, Derrick Williams is beyond reproach and the system won't make him play within a cohesive offensive unit? Maybe, just maybe, that's on the GM.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostHe shouldn't be unstoppable, where did I use that word, he, like everyone else, should be properly used. The offense has interchangeable pieces, but putting RoLo in the corner is dumb. Putting Williams at the 3 point line and Sasha in the pinch post is equally dumb. Possessions matter, you can't brainfart your way through games by just mindlessly getting in position and running around.you didn't use unstoppable but you stated if they ran a play for him it would be automatic which in basketball terms is the same thing...
But really despite me thinking Fish wasn't a good coach I don't think the firing was good or justifiable... plus if Phil wants to demand that coaches watch film and shit when he wants them to he should coach himself
By reilo Go To PostMaybe, just maybe, Derrick Williams is beyond reproach and the system won't make him play within a cohesive offensive unit? Maybe, just maybe, that's on the GM.
Sure, and that would be fine, if it was just Derrick Williams. But the entire offense was run poorly the last couple of weeks when it shouldn't have been. It makes no sense that they were picking teams apart, countering fronting defenses, getting lobs and back door cuts all the time that worked, to just not even attempting most of that stuff later on. Either Fisher lost the team some, or he just stopped giving a Fuck, or he couldn't rein in the mistakes fast enough. Something inexplicable was going on.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostSure, and that would be fine, if it was just Derrick Williams. But the entire offense was run poorly the last couple of weeks when it shouldn't have been. It makes no sense that they were picking teams apart, countering fronting defenses, getting lobs and back door cuts all the time that worked, to just not even attempting most of that stuff later on. Either Fisher lost the team some, or he just stopped giving a Fuck, or he couldn't rein in the mistakes fast enough. Something inexplicable was going on.OR the players aren't that great and Fisher had them playing above their capabilities but they eventually regressed to their old shitty ways because we have years and hundreds of games of statistics to showcase that many of them aren't either very good or just average players at best even when healthy except Carmelo and maybe that's again on the GM?
By blackace Go To Postyou didn't use unstoppable but you stated if they ran a play for him it would be automatic which in basketball terms is the same thing…
But really despite me thinking Fish wasn't a good coach I don't think the firing was good or justifiable… plus if Phil wants to demand that coaches watch film and shit when he wants them to he should coach himself
Yes absolutely, Derrick Williams, when he's not being defended by a really good defender, catching the ball at the pinch post, having the directive to drive, and having hte proper spacing around him is a good basketball sequence. It's a shit ton better basketball sequence than him chucking a 3 and Sasha being in the post.
By DY_nasty Go To Postsomehow i'm more upset with fisher getting fired than the panthers losing the superbowlpriorities, how does it work?
By Kabro Go To Postpriorities, how does it work?Panthers beating the Seahawks was Dy's Superbowl
By reilo Go To PostOR the players aren't that great and Fisher had them playing above their capabilities but they eventually regressed to their old shitty ways because they aren't that great of players and maybe that's again on the GM?
But this wasn't about shooting, and it wasn't about NOT running the offense. It's not like Melo just started shooting 30 shots a game, or RoLo went back to a guy who had no post game. They didn't revert back to shit they did before they got here. They were still running the offense, just without utilizing their advantages. They were falling in massive holes for 2, 3 quarters and not making the most obvious of tactical changes to address glaring miscues execution wise.
Take a timeout, whenever, and go "ok guys, now we're going to set up with Porzingis on the pinch post and Melo at the top, run a 2 man game PnR. The team didn't have an unstoppable number of advantages, but they had several, and they just stopped using them.
By blackace Go To PostPanthers beating the Seahawks was Dy's Superbowllol true ;_;
Early on, they were shooting like ass except Galloway and the team was shutting down opponents 3's. I was defending him because of the learning period. Then they hit a patch after that bad first couple of weeks of December where they were executing really really really well. Beating fronting defenses, getting lob plays for Porzingis and Williams, Melo was getting 7-9 assists a game, Afflalo was toasting people from the post, Porzingis was getting lots and lots of great looks, then the last two weeks they look like a team that's just learning what their strengths are.
https://streamable.com/0bo5
This, is an automatic read. If there's a guy who can't post up for shit (Calderon) in the post and a big at the top, you set back pick for lob. Sasha is finding himself there and just trying to post his guy and catch the ball. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.
https://streamable.com/0bo5
This, is an automatic read. If there's a guy who can't post up for shit (Calderon) in the post and a big at the top, you set back pick for lob. Sasha is finding himself there and just trying to post his guy and catch the ball. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.
Fish was given half-wilted flowers and somehow because the bouquet isn't beautiful, that's his fault lmao.
By blackace Go To PostPanthers beating the Seahawks was Dy's SuperbowlToo soon?
By vic Go To PostToo soon?more like completely accurate
i disliked cam long before it was fashionable. im just glad there wasn't a towel nearby
Cam's got plenty of opportunities in the future. He looked a lot better against this Denver godlike D than Peyton did against Seattle's
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostCam's got plenty of opportunities in the future. He looked a lot better against this Denver godlike D than Peyton did against Seattle'sWell I would hope he'd look better than a washed up QB with a broken neck and no arm.
At least Peyton tried to recover his own fumble though.