By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostI'm actually looking forward to Knicks/Warriors to see if they the Knicks can shut down their 3 pt shooting too. Might be a blueprint for the league.I know it's been quoted twice already, but Jesus man. This is insane.
vahaghn doesn't want us to armchair coach or armchair gm but he's out here writing essays everyday about everything he's supposedly been right about
By Dark PhaZe Go To Postvahaghn doesn't want us to armchair coach or armchair gm but he's out here writing essays everyday about everything he's supposedly been right about
By all means, keep complaining about Wittman, it's not getting old at all.
By KingGondo Go To PostI know it's been quoted twice already, but Jesus man. This is insane.
Is it?
"I'm looking forward to seeing if the best 3pt defense in the league can shut down the best 3 pt offense in the league"
What's so crazy about that statement? I didn't say they could, I said I was looking forward to seeing if they could.
They're playing big lineups and holding 3 point shooting down below 30% even with Houston's explosion. That shouldn't be happening so I'm interested to see if their defensive schemes work against GS. I doubt it, but I'm interested to see.
Just to clear up confusion. Knicks obviously lose that game and probably even get blown out. They don't have the firepower to compete. Just talking specifically about 3 pt shooting efficiency.
I'm just happy that all this is happening in OAKLAND before they move. Make all this history and accolade stuff happen in Oakland before moving to SF.
I hope they stay tho...
I hope they stay tho...
I've seen some analysis on opponent 3pt% before and it appears largely random. Good 3pt defense is better measured by limiting attempts from 3. Of course, rim and other close-to-the-basket attempts have to also be considered (to account for opposing teams forgoing the 3 for lots of rim-runs).
By Kibner Go To PostI've seen some analysis on opponent 3pt% before and it appears largely random. Good 3pt defense is better measured by limiting attempts from 3. Of course, rim and other close-to-the-basket attempts have to also be considered (to account for opposing teams forgoing the 3 for lots of rim-runs).
Eh I don't buy that. But it's fine.
By reilo Go To PostOf course you don't.
If you hold a team down below 30% like GS or NY does. Why not let them shoot as many threes as they'd like. That's 90 points on 100 shots.
I don't buy random. Teams that consistently keep opponent FG% down have outliers, but the trend stays the same all season. Why wouldn't opponent FG% from 3 be the same?
Lots of shit looks random when you look at a hundreds of thousands of shots. But a team that 20 games in, and 50 games in and 80 games in is consistently keeping opponent 3's below average. Whatever you wanna call it, keep doing what you're doing.
By K@do Go To Postthe triangle is so great, it forces opponents to shoot lower % 3pt attempts.
The two things aren't directly related. But eh, explaining this stuff would be pointless to a group that's not interested.
I don't have time to look up the splits, but, if you split a season in half, there is a large variance of oppenent's 3pt% between the halves for each team. The graphs I remember seeing a couple years ago showed that only IND and CHI had relatively consistent numbers. Everyone else jumped around considerably.
Unfortunately, this was done in a post on a different forum, so it isn't very easy to look up.
Unfortunately, this was done in a post on a different forum, so it isn't very easy to look up.
Kobe is playing terrible but he's gonna get 30+ minutes and 20+ FGAs until he can't lace em up.
He has lost LA a good amount of winnable games already. I just hope he can stay in one piece til the end of season.
Thanks for everything Kobe.
He has lost LA a good amount of winnable games already. I just hope he can stay in one piece til the end of season.
Thanks for everything Kobe.
Not to mention the last few years Knicks have been complete ass defending the 3. I mean teams literally passing up open layups for 3's. I remember Toronto basically doing this every single game 2 years ago vs. the Knicks, it was infuriating. Going by simple eyetest Knicks aren't doing anything drastically different to defend the 3 better either outside of aggressive switching (Mike Woodson anyone?) and trying to stay up on their man more.
By Moris Go To PostKobe is playing terrible but he's gonna get 30+ minutes and 20+ FGAs until he can't lace em up.
He has lost LA a good amount of winnable games already. I just hope he can stay in one piece til the end of season.
Thanks for everything Kobe.
Last night we got the game really close (I think we were only down by 3) with about 3-4 minutes to go and Scott subbed Bryant back in. They did about 3 immediate Bryant iso's and we went back down by 7-9.
By Fenderputty Go To PostLast night we got the game really close (I think we were only down by 3) with about 3-4 minutes to go and Scott subbed Bryant back in. They did about 3 immediate Bryant iso's and we went back down by 7-9.so, scott really knows what he's doing.
securing that top 3 pick.
im so sorry i doubted you Coach Scott.
By The Frankman Go To PostNot to mention the last few years Knicks have been complete ass defending the 3. I mean teams literally passing up open layups for 3's. I remember Toronto basically doing this every single game 2 years ago vs. the Knicks, it was infuriating. Going by simple eyetest Knicks aren't doing anything drastically different to defend the 3 better either outside of aggressive switching (Mike Woodson anyone?) and trying to stay up on their man more.
When you have no interior defenders at all and no shotblocking - you don't have a choice but to allow 3 point shooting though. You either allow layups or you hope they miss 3's. Team's aren't going to just settle for mid range shots when they get inside the arc and see Acy and Jason Smith patrolling the paint.
The last few years of Phil's regime in LA he and the team brought up 3 point defense all the time. They basically implied that the only way they thought they could lose a game is if opponents got hot from 3. So they focused on taking it away and relied on their talent to win the mid range and post up game.
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2011/1/6/1919131/phil-jacksons-defensive-strategy-is-statistically-approved
You'll never guess the two areas in which the Lakers excel defensively…. limiting free throws and three pointers. Over the past three years, the Lakers have been amongst the best in the league in both categories. In 2008-09, they ranked 3rd in three point defense and 6th in free throws allowed per field goal attempt. Last season, it was 1st and 2nd respectively. This year they are once again ranked 2nd in free throws allowed, but have "fallen" to 6th again in three point defense. Ironically, this is almost entirely the Suns' doing. Without last night's contest and the Suns victory in Staples Center, the Lakers 3 pt % defense would be better than it was last season.
So Phil adopts a defensive strategy to stop 3's for years - even before the rest of the league catches on to their importance in winning championships but let's ignore all that because "lulz triangle sux".
K, cool.
K, cool.
I mean, you're floating out a theory that a team featuring Jose Calderon at starting point guard is gonna stop Curry from dropping 8 threes on their head, but ok.
By reilo Go To PostI mean, you're floating out a theory that a team featuring Jose Calderon at starting point guard is gonna stop Curry from dropping 8 threes on their head, but ok.
He never said "is gonna stop" anything. Come on. He asked a question, a pure hypothetical. He was wondering HOW they'd play against the Warriors. Not stating they would play well.
You guys need to chill out a little sometimes.
Granted when I read it, I knew a number of the posters would jump on it quick for no reason.
By reilo Go To PostI mean, you're floating out a theory that a team featuring Jose Calderon at starting point guard is gonna stop Curry from dropping 8 threes on their head, but ok.
No I'm floating out "Best 3 pt defense vs. best 3 point offense" should be interesting to watch.
Any other two teams in that scenario, that would be a very sensible statement. But ya'll just on that FUCKDAKNICKS mentality right now.
For the record, I don't know why it's working in NY so far and why it worked in LAL. I don't conceptually understand defensive schemes the way I do certain offensive ones. I get things like icing the PnR, doubling a ball handler, fronting the post, forcing baseline. I get individual components but I don't understand entire defensive systems.
I'm just saying I'm not surprised that Phil proteges are running schemes that are effective in keeping opponent 3 pt FG% down considering they played for him when he was successfully implementing it too.
By AlphaSnacks Go To PostHe never said "is gonna stop" anything. Come on. He asked a question, a pure hypothetical. He was wondering HOW they'd play against the Warriors. Not stating they would play well.ACTUAL quote:
You guys need to chill out a little sometimes.
Granted when I read it, I knew a number of the posters would jump on it quick for no reason.
see if they the Knicks can shut down their 3 pt shooting too
By reilo Go To PostACTUAL quote:
What does "if" mean tho.
To explain the thought process behind 3pta being a better measure of 3pt defense than 3pt%, the idea is that players generally shoot 3s when they are comfortable or at the end of the shot clock. If players are only taking 3s when they are comfortable, then the incoming contest doesn't have as much impact on whether the shot goes in or not.
Limiting the number of 3s taken by an opponent means you aren't letting them get comfortable actually taking that shot. If the opponent is taking a bunch of 3s, it's because the defense is giving them the opportunity to.
3s at the end of the shotclock are hard for a defense to force and are much less common than giving up other kinds of 3s, so their influence on the data is relatively minimal.
Limiting the number of 3s taken by an opponent means you aren't letting them get comfortable actually taking that shot. If the opponent is taking a bunch of 3s, it's because the defense is giving them the opportunity to.
3s at the end of the shotclock are hard for a defense to force and are much less common than giving up other kinds of 3s, so their influence on the data is relatively minimal.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostWhat does "if" mean tho.For you? A prediction.
By Kibner Go To PostTo explain the thought process behind 3pta being a better measure of 3pt defense than 3pt%, the idea is that players generally shoot 3s when they are comfortable or at the end of the shot clock. If players are only taking 3s when they are comfortable, then the incoming contest doesn't have as much impact on whether the shot goes in or not.
Limiting the number of 3s taken by an opponent means you aren't letting them get comfortable actually taking that shot. If the opponent is taking a bunch of 3s, it's because the defense is giving them the opportunity to.
3s at the end of the shotclock are hard for a defense to force and are much less common than giving up other kinds of 3s, so their influence on the data is relatively minimal.
I think this argument maybe holds weight in pure statistical analysis, but not in actual basketball coaching or x's and o's. Playing good defense on Kobe is not the same as stopping him from shooting 3's. Quite the opposite, in fact. For years guys let people like Josh Smith or Lebron or Rondo shoot 3's rather than chase them off the 3 point line.
If I'm a coach, It would make much more sense to let bad 3 point shooters shoot 3's than it would to just keep the opponents 3 point FGA down.
If I see that the Lakers shot 30 threes and Kobe shot 8 of them and converted 1 - I'm not going to argue that the opponents played bad defense against them because of the 30 attempts.
That argument fails in lots of basketball situations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85GnX5uQFG4 - That's great defense - but the Rockets got a 3 point attempt though.
By reilo Go To Post😂
Lmao
By K@do Go To Postso, scott really knows what he's doing.
securing that top 3 pick.
im so sorry i doubted you Coach Scott.
Think about how depressing this sarcasm is.
How has Rubio still not learned to shoot a basketball.
Evans
Rubio
Flynn
Lawson
Holiday
Maynor
Curry was sandwiched in between those PG's. Man Khan sent his franchise back years by skipping on Curry.
Evans
Rubio
Flynn
Lawson
Holiday
Maynor
Curry was sandwiched in between those PG's. Man Khan sent his franchise back years by skipping on Curry.
You aren't going to win games like Pop if you don't thump players regardless of their achievements and capabilities.
By DY_nasty Go To Posta game needs to hurry up and come on so that this page may be cleansedWe could start talking about the Knicks going down to Miami and styling on them so hard Whiteside snaps again.
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostI think this argument maybe holds weight in pure statistical analysis, but not in actual basketball coaching or x's and o's. Playing good defense on Kobe is not the same as stopping him from shooting 3's. Quite the opposite, in fact. For years guys let people like Josh Smith or Lebron or Rondo shoot 3's rather than chase them off the 3 point line.The problem with this is that it's hard to scheme for individual teams/players each game during the season (unlike the playoffs).
If I'm a coach, It would make much more sense to let bad 3 point shooters shoot 3's than it would to just keep the opponents 3 point FGA down.
If I see that the Lakers shot 30 threes and Kobe shot 8 of them and converted 1 - I'm not going to argue that the opponents played bad defense against them because of the 30 attempts.
That argument fails in lots of basketball situations. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85GnX5uQFG4 - That's great defense - but the Rockets got a 3 point attempt though.
You basically play your base defensive set with some tweaks (whatever your set happens to be). So you can do some easy and obvious tweaks like if Lebron has the ball at the 3 point line, don't run at him or give him some space (back in the day, not now as much).
But if your team has defensive scheme X and that will lead Team Y to shoot Z 3s by P players, it is hard to really change your defense for say the 4th game in 5 nights on a road trip for that team. You're going to play your base D and that's about it. You may have to change your entire PnR defense to prevent a lot of 3s or to allow bad 3 point shooters to shoot a lot and it's not really feasible.
We see these adjustments in the playoffs (ala Bogut defending Tony Allen) or schematic changes but you don't see this during the regular season much because it's not practical.
It's the same reason why guys like Korver can be exposed in the playoffs but are amazeballs during the season.
By reilo Go To Post
And people wonder why my soul is dying. DYING.
I'm pretty much not watching games where Kobe plays now. They're just not fun. Byron is the fucking worst coach of all time. I don't care if you think we should lose, Lakers-Slaent. At best, there's a 50% chance of keeping the pick. Win or lose I'm fucking tired of seeing Brandon Bass play center in the 4th quarter of a close game. HE IS NOT A FUCKING CENTER...OR RIM PROTECTOR...FUCK.
I'm fucking done with Byron and his clownshoes operation. Russell is playing better, at least.
By Mamba Go To PostThe problem with this is that it's hard to scheme for individual teams/players each game during the season (unlike the playoffs).
You basically play your base defensive set with some tweaks (whatever your set happens to be). So you can do some easy and obvious tweaks like if Lebron has the ball at the 3 point line, don't run at him or give him some space (back in the day, not now as much).
But if your team has defensive scheme X and that will lead Team Y to shoot Z 3s by P players, it is hard to really change your defense for say the 4th game in 5 nights on a road trip for that team. You're going to play your base D and that's about it. You may have to change your entire PnR defense to prevent a lot of 3s or to allow bad 3 point shooters to shoot a lot and it's not really feasible.
We see these adjustments in the playoffs (ala Bogut defending Tony Allen) or schematic changes but you don't see this during the regular season much because it's not practical.
It's the same reason why guys like Korver can be exposed in the playoffs but are amazeballs during the season.
But we're assuming good defensive schemes, no? It seems like the argument is whether or not 3pt FGA is a better indication of defense than 3pt FG%
Team A allows 30 3's a game but hold teams to 30% from behind the arc
Team B allow 20 3's a game but hold teams to 38% from behind the arc.
My argument is that team A is a better 3 point defense. I can understand the general counterargument, I just don't agree with it.
I understand your specific point though about changing strategy in the regular season and I've used it to explain partly why I think the entire Suns teams did well in the regular season but not as well in the playoffs - I've made that exact same argument before.
By diehard Go To Posthttps://streamable.com/pbu7CJ ain't that quick lmao
omg lol
That would get a first year player benched until their next contract with the 76ers.
By diehard Go To Posthttps://streamable.com/pbu7tank awareness
omg lol
By reilo Go To Postlmao.
Byron Scott should've just said Kobe is free, and i would've been like, aight coo.
but nope, asshole made me read his nonsensical excuses on why he can't "man up" to kobe.
#clownshoes
By diehard Go To Posthttps://streamable.com/pbu7
omg lol
By unknown Go To Postwhy are people hating on kobe?got enough energy to take 20 shots a game on horrible efficiency but not enough energy to get back on defense lmao
By 3SidedPolygons Go To PostBut we're assuming good defensive schemes, no? It seems like the argument is whether or not 3pt FGA is a better indication of defense than 3pt FG%Of course the first is better.
Team A allows 30 3's a game but hold teams to 30% from behind the arc
Team B allow 20 3's a game but hold teams to 38% from behind the arc.
My argument is that team A is a better 3 point defense. I can understand the general counterargument, I just don't agree with it.
I understand your specific point though about changing strategy in the regular season and I've used it to explain partly why I think the entire Suns teams did well in the regular season but not as well in the playoffs - I've made that exact same argument before.
But I think the thing other people are saying is that if you look at 3PTA or 3FG% against you'll find that 3PTA correlates better with better defense.
The reason, IMO, is because during the regular season it's impossible to scheme to force more 3pt shots from poorer shooters. So teams that give up a lot of 3s tend to give up a lot of good 3s to good 3 point shooters.
But that doesn't mean you can't give up a lot of 3s and be a good defense. It depends why the teams are getting 3s off. Late shot clock desperation shots, perhaps?
Put it this way. A team that plays the Warriors is going to have more success, generally, if their team's defensive scheme successfully limits 3PTA over a team that doesn't. For a team that doesn't, they're not going to have a scheme to shift Curry's 3s to Harrison Barnes and Shaun Livingston.
Pete Guelli @PeteGuelli 45m45 minutes ago
The Kings play at the 2nd fastest pace in the NBA. Should make for quite a show tonight! #HoldOn #EnterTheSwarm
Rick Bonnell @rick_bonnell 22m22 minutes ago Charlotte, NC
The Sacramento Kings have the NBA's worst field-goal percentage defense at 46.6 percent. They allow the third-most points, 106.9 per game.
fuck defense m8
The Kings play at the 2nd fastest pace in the NBA. Should make for quite a show tonight! #HoldOn #EnterTheSwarm
Rick Bonnell @rick_bonnell 22m22 minutes ago Charlotte, NC
The Sacramento Kings have the NBA's worst field-goal percentage defense at 46.6 percent. They allow the third-most points, 106.9 per game.
fuck defense m8
By knux-future Go To PostI don't want to hear about souls crushingwe all knew lakers fans weren't built for this