NBA Season 2023-24 | The Logo, Forevermore

smith just wants to go against reese so bad. angel must be doing some elite shit talking right now.

Boston or Clark should’ve taken all the shots in the last three minutes
lol what a collapse

reese rodman cooked smith

By friskySHOOKface Go To PostBoston or Clark should’ve taken all the shots in the last three minutes
lol what a collapse

sabrina>>>

Brink >>>>>>

I'd wear matching ugly Christmas sweaters with Izzy Harrison and send out the photo to our families with 😁 type of smile

Oh Paige is outside.

🤣

Will Borrego land the Pistons job???

Depends on if Langdon likes him, I guess.

bitch ass going to cleveland that's cute

borrego in detroit lmao

WOO!

ngl sometimes I want him over Sarr

By Dark PhaZe Go To Post

https://x.com/NBADraftWass/status/1790067758404706395

ngl sometimes I want him over Sarr

I wouldn't hate it lol. As long as we don't take this guy:

I don't know shit but goddam I feel like whatever tape some have on Risacher has to be some exclusive shit that no one else has access to

By knux-future Go To PostI don't know shit but goddam I feel like whatever tape some have on Risacher has to be some exclusive shit that no one else has access to

"The athleticism of Emoni Bates and Adam Morrison, with some of the worst production in his draft class" wow sounds like a great potential #1 pick! Hate that if he busts people will justify it with "well it was a weak draft" too.

By Sharp Go To Post"The athleticism of Emoni Bates and Adam Morrison, with some of the worst production in his draft class" wow sounds like a great potential #1 pick! Hate that if he busts people will justify it with "well it was a weak draft" too.

I don't get it, either. Must be the Frenchman effect, only thing I can make it explain.

https://amp.charlotteobserver.com/sports/charlotte-hornets/article289280330.html

good riddance

Eh, I'm not as down on Zacc as most. 6'9 and could still maybe be growing, athleticism isn't great but he uses what he has more than some guys who can actually jump out of a gym.

He's desirable because he's 19, shot 35%+ in a pro league, and moves his feet defensively. It seems like a low bar, but the mid case scenario where he is just that is better than some others at the top of the draft. You can't bet on him breaking through his ceiling, but it's not out of the question. His floor would be really bad if he can't shoot, and there's some chance that happens, but if you like him you're betting it doesn't.

I don't think Atlanta takes him, but I don't know if they have the "balls" to take Clingan #1. I think when push comes to shove they'll take Sarr.

when you can take a poor man's batum first overall, you gotta do it

By Dark PhaZe Go To PostEh, I'm not as down on Zacc as most. 6'9 and could still maybe be growing, athleticism isn't great but he uses what he has more than some guys who can actually jump out of a gym.

He's desirable because he's 19, shot 35%+ in a pro league, and moves his feet defensively. It seems like a low bar, but the mid case scenario where he is just that is better than some others at the top of the draft. You can't bet on him breaking through his ceiling, but it's not out of the question. His floor would be really bad if he can't shoot, and there's some chance that happens, but if you like him you're betting it doesn't.

I don't think Atlanta takes him, but I don't know if they have the "balls" to take Clingan #1. I think when push comes to shove they'll take Sarr.

Yeah but his problem is that he isn't elite at anything and he's very bad at a bunch of shit (bad rebounder for his size, can't handle the ball a lot without turning it over, not a good passer, doesn't get to the line at a high rate, doesn't shoot efficiently enough to be valuable on low usage or shoot a little above average on high volume, doesn't get to the rim easily). I thought his POA defense looked good but when you go through the RAPM breakdowns of greatest defenders in history very few of them got there exclusively through POA defense. How's he going to provide value above an average player? With Clingan, I can tell you the answer to that. I can do it with Reed. I can tell you for fucking Ryan Dunn. But I can't do it for Risacher. Like at some point it can't just be enough to be wing sized and 35+% from three for a single outlier year, because as Pelton pointed out there are like six or seven guys in this class like that, it's not that rare (and some of them have better backing peripherals than he does).

BTW, according to a 28 year RAPM visualization that breaks down everyone into the four factors, here is every single player that is positive in every single one of the four factors on both ends, in order of descending RAPM:

[*]Paul George (+6.5)
[*]Giannis Antetokounmpo (+6.4)
[*]Jimmy Butler (+5.0)
[*]Luol Deng (+4.3)
[*]Metta World Peace (+3.9)
[*]Scottie Pippen (+3.5)
[*]Anthony Davis (+2.9)
[*]Jonathan Isaac (+2.9)
[*]Andre Roberson (+2.2)
[*]P.J. Tucker (+1.4)
[*]Rudy Gay (+0.7)

Much rarer than I expected--most players have significant weaknesses. Worth keeping in mind when we talk about certain guys in this draft. Also was very funny to me to see Giannis in the list considering how much he's criticized for being one dimensional.

Also worth noting 5/11 players on this list won a ring (there would be even more if I didn't cut off guys like Kawhi, Tatum, Ron Harper, Aaron Gordon, Danny Green, etc. who were one very slightly negative component away from being positive on everything). Seems like a valuable type of player to have on your team.

Andre Roberson has a positive RAPM offensively? No way, dude. That was the worst offensive player I've seen in a long while.

By reilo Go To PostAndre Roberson has a positive RAPM offensively? No way, dude. That was the worst offensive player I've seen in a long while.

I'm honestly not sure how, but he had a positive eFG impact despite not shooting efficiently and being a bad passer, a barely positive turnover impact despite a high TOV%, and a good free throw impact despite not having a particularly high FTr. And on low usage, too! Would be fascinating to see how that happened, most players with beyond the box score impact you can kind of understand why.

I know how!

His other teammates were Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Paul George, Serge Ibaka, and Steven Adams

MYSTERY SOLVED

By reilo Go To PostI know how!

His other teammates were Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Paul George, Serge Ibaka, and Steven Adams

MYSTERY SOLVED

It's something weirder than that because all his individual three year offensive RAPM stretches except 2014-2017 (slightly positive for shooting because it included his random efficient season) were negative for both eFG% and turnovers (and much more negative from 2013-2016). i.e. he actually looked better when you factored in him playing with both good and bad lineups (and all those stars getting to play with a broad range of NBA guys) than he did with either exclusively good or exclusively bad players.

Good for Scottie
Get that $$$$$$$

But oof, gotta hope players take giant leaps

I think it might actually be related to screening, Roberson is apparently a great screen setter. Usually we attribute that to centers but Roberson was a super weird player. And while he was inefficient, he wasn't horrendously inefficient before his injuries, and it's not like he was asked to shoot much--he had one of the lowest usage rates for any starter I've seen. Everyone else on that team needed as many touches as possible, so him not wanting the ball and just doing a bunch of dirty work like screens and offensive rebounding was probably better for the offense in the context of his role on OKC compared to an average player who came in and wanted a normal amount of touches.

By Sharp Go To PostYeah but his problem is that he isn't elite at anything and he's very bad at a bunch of shit (bad rebounder for his size, can't handle the ball a lot without turning it over, not a good passer, doesn't get to the line at a high rate, doesn't shoot efficiently enough to be valuable on low usage or shoot a little above average on high volume, doesn't get to the rim easily). I thought his POA defense looked good but when you go through the RAPM breakdowns of greatest defenders in history very few of them got there exclusively through POA defense. How's he going to provide value above an average player? With Clingan, I can tell you the answer to that. I can do it with Reed. I can tell you for fucking Ryan Dunn. But I can't do it for Risacher. Like at some point it can't just be enough to be wing sized and 35+% from three for a single outlier year, because as Pelton pointed out there are like six or seven guys in this class like that, it's not that rare (and some of them have better backing peripherals than he does).

The more smokescreen stuff I see on this draft the more I seriously wonder if Risacher isn't going to drop a bunch. I have Sheppard, Clingan and Castle at the top of my board. (and that's mega irritating because I'd want to draft all those guys in the 5-10 range in a normal draft.) Outside of shooting I just don't know what gets the guy on the floor and frankly out of every NBA level skill that's the most teachable one.

I can't think of a single good damned reason to not take a guy like Tristan DaSilva over him, age be damned.

Why would you want Clingan after 7 seasons of Nurk, dude? And I'm talking post-injury Nurk, here.

By reilo Go To PostWhy would you want Clingan after 7 seasons of Nurk, dude? And I'm talking post-injury Nurk, here.

It's probably mostly that I want a damn center that isn't gun shy of contact and wants to set good screens and fight for rebounds. But also I view the guy's ceiling as pre-injury Nurk/Stephen Adams instead, which is still a pretty damned good and useful player. Memphis is kind of the idea here where you have flexibility- you can play super huge in the half court or you can play 5 out and fast (with whatever stretch big you draft) depending on what the other team does.

By Christberg Go To PostIt's probably mostly that I want a damn center that isn't gun shy of contact and wants to set good screens and fight for rebounds. But also I view the guy's ceiling as pre-injury Nurk/Stephen Adams instead, which is still a pretty damned good and useful player. Memphis is kind of the idea here where you have flexibility- you can play super huge in the half court or you can play 5 out and fast (with whatever stretch big you draft) depending on what the other team does.

As I outlined a couple months back, that lane is clogged with Ayton not being a rim runner and a poor screen setter. You're not solving it by add a good screen setter and a lane clogger that can't even be hidden in the dunker's spot.

If you want to optimize the guards and wings in today's NBA, you need a dude that isn't a traffic cone on offense. Both Ayton and Clingan are, but for opposite reasons.

A stat that doesn’t tell you Andre Roberson was one of the worst offensive players ever doesn’t deserve to get mentioned.

By Rob Go To PostA stat that doesn’t tell you Andre Roberson was one of the worst offensive players ever doesn’t deserve to get mentioned.

Funnily enough despite being positive in every single component, I rechecked and he still grades out as a big offensive negative overall (but still not close to one of the worst offensive players ever). So the average player is still way better than him offensively despite being less "well-rounded" (Jonathan Isaac is also a tiny negative on offense, but everyone else in the list is a positive on both ends as expected). The factors are all computed independently of each other so this is statistically possible, but still weird (especially for someone who played a good number of NBA minutes). The inverse of this (someone who's negative on all offensive factors but still an offensive positive) never happens, and neither does someone who's negative on all defensive factors but still a defensive positive, so basically a perfectly mediocre player (on either end) is a below average player. Which again goes back to what I'm saying, I would never take someone #1 who doesn't have a single elite skill.

By reilo Go To PostAs I outlined a couple months back, that lane is clogged with Ayton not being a rim runner and a poor screen setter. You're not solving it by add a good screen setter and a lane clogger that can't even be hidden in the dunker's spot.

If you want to optimize the guards and wings in today's NBA, you need a dude that isn't a traffic cone on offense. Both Ayton and Clingan are, but for opposite reasons.

Ayton's a fine tank commander but I figure he's probably gone in a season or so. Unless he can turn into a big ass PF/C that shoots 3-4 3s a game.

This is absolutely a thing you can disagree with but I'd rather have a role player that plays a role well than a guy that thinks he's a star player but will probably never get there. At 7 I'm OK with that if he's got some things you can't teach, like being 7'3" 300 pounds and able read plays at a decent level.

It does kinda suck drafting a guy who's ceiling is maybe Rudy Gobert with a bit better playmaking but also this is a trash draft class.

Clingan's definitely got some warts - I have serious concerns about both the guy's stamina and his long-term health.

By Christberg Go To PostThis is absolutely a thing you can disagree with but I'd rather have a role player that plays a role well than a guy that thinks he's a star player but will probably never get there. At 7 I'm OK with that if he's got some things you can't teach, like being 7'3" 300 pounds and able read plays at a decent level.

I 100% agree with that if you got the other 4 positions sorted out, e.g. the Warriors with Bogut and then Looney.

However, Portland doesn't, so drafting for someone that you think grades out as a "solid role-player" in the Top 7 (even on a weak draft!) is absolutely awful way to go about the draft when you are devoid of talent.

Take the swing on the dude that has the highest ceiling. The likes of Clingan or even Knecht aren't gonna save you.

Portland is tanking again next season anyways. May as well take a guy that looks foundational even if he never projects to anything special

By reilo Go To PostI 100% agree with that if you got the other 4 positions sorted out, e.g. the Warriors with Bogut and then Looney.

However, Portland doesn't, so drafting for someone that you think grades out as a "solid role-player" in the Top 7 (even on a weak draft!) is absolutely awful way to go about the draft when you are devoid of talent.

Take the swing on the dude that has the highest ceiling. The likes of Clingan or even Knecht aren't gonna save you.

The guy with the highest reasonable ceiling should be someone who has multiple projectable skills where they'll be way above average and relatively few glaring weaknesses (relative to their position). Who are those guys in this class? Are you sure Clingan isn't one of them, especially if he's available at #7? Like he's not just a great drop defender, rim protector (elite block rate, comparable to Mitch Robinson / Walker Kessler), and elite rebounder... he shot 60% on twos on high usage, that's not common at all for a center prospect. He has high feel for a center (over 2:1 AST:TO). Low turnovers. Shot 55% on non-rim twos (45% unassisted).

Basically, he's not just huge. He has a legit offensive game that's very advanced for a center, especially one his age. The health concerns are real and I don't think he's a shooter, but I really don't think he's as low ceiling as people are making him out to be.

If he's BPA at #7 I can see the value in taking him, but I don't see his ceiling being a figure that alters a franchise trajectory at that position. Doesn't mean he can't raise the team's floor but Portland is devoid of dudes that are capable of making ASG/All-NBA.

I'd rather they swing for a dude that can become that.

Does Clingan? I don't see it. Does a guy like Chet? Yea, that I do see. I'd rather go for a Chet. TBF IDK if anyone at 7 in this draft can be that.

By reilo Go To PostIf he's BPA at #7 I can see the value in taking him, but I don't see his ceiling being a figure that alters a franchise trajectory at that position. Doesn't mean he can't raise the team's floor but Portland is devoid of dudes that are capable of making ASG/All-NBA.

I'd rather they swing for a dude that can become that.

Does Clingan? I don't see it. Does a guy like Chet? Yea, that I do see. I'd rather go for a Chet. TBF IDK if anyone at 7 in this draft can be that.

It's honestly hard to say. I think part of the reason people are reluctant to make good comps for Clingan (you'll hear Gobert a lot but it's not really accurate) is because there aren't a lot of comps for what he did in college. 15 BPM at basically the same age Chet had 15 BPM, but playing as a more traditional center? We don't see that often, if at all. Like when you are asked to think of traditional dominant defensive centers who are legitimately good at offense but not stretch bigs, it's like... Embiid (who was actually remarkably similar as a freshman to Clingan's freshman year)? AD, kind of (but a very different type of center, and definitely not the same kind of prospect)? And that's kind of it. Most centers drafted recently were either only really good on one end (especially as prospects--e.g. Ayton, Sengun, Sabonis, Jokic, Lively), didn't fit the conventional center mold (Wemby, Chet, etc.), or were just not at that level of elite impact for their age. I tend to subscribe to the view that the strength of the center position in the NBA is less about leaguewide trends and more about whether really skilled seven footers happen to be born at the right time, so for me taking someone who might break the mold a bit in the modern league wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Brook Lopez in Milwaukee? I love Brook and what he's done in Milwaukee but like they had Giannis and Khris and then added Jrue to put it all together.

By reilo Go To PostBrook Lopez?

Stretch big... and he was drafted like 15 years ago and was never that dominant of a prospect (or player for that matter). Like check his college stats, he was surprisingly mid. I'm talking guys who were elite in college.

I'm just trying to comp of what Clingan could be in the NBA.

Brook wasn't a stretch big for most of his career. That came later but he's a really good fucking Drop D center. He had two careers essentially.

But again, GIANNIS.

By reilo Go To PostBrook wasn't a stretch big for most of his career. That came later but he's a really good fucking Drop D center.

But again, GIANNIS.

He was fine, but definitely not dominant in college on either end. He had a worse block rate in college than Derrick White lol. Had a 0.6 AST:TO ratio. 47.5% from two. 15 TRB%. On insane usage--I'm not saying he was bad or anything--but Clingan is on another level on both ends.

I'm just trying to comp of what Clingan could be in the NBA.

Yeah but my whole point is that the only comps people can think of are either guys like Embiid or guys that were way worse than he was as a prospect. Like we started this off talking about ceilings for his player type, right? So we should at least use guys who were comparable prospects, not guys who were never that good... I'm definitely NOT saying I think he's going to be Embiid, but I do think when you find yourself struggling to think of a reasonable comp because it's hard to find someone so good at that age it's a very positive sign.

I've been pretty happy with Schmitz and co's evaluation thus far during the post-Olshey era. If they think Clingan is it I'll trust them but I'm still struggling to see it longterm.

I'd also rather be wrong on a guy turning out good than be right on him turning out bad, and so it goes.

I guess the other part is that thus far the last 15 years of NBA champions lacked a dominant center (outside of Jokic), so maybe it's all irrelevant at the end of the day.

A dominant forward is really the key to it all and if Portland gets lucky next season maybe the likes of Cooper Flagg can unlock that.

By reilo Go To PostI guess the other part is that thus far the last 15 years of NBA champions lacked a dominant center (outside of Jokic), so maybe it's all irrelevant at the end of the day.

A dominant forward is really the key to it all and if Portland gets lucky next season maybe the likes of Cooper Flagg can unlock that.

I mean yeah, if you're looking for a guy who can absolutely guarantee you a championship at #7 you for sure aren't going to find it there (in this or any draft). More just explaining why so many teams seem so eager to get Clingan, I honestly don't think it's a smokescreen at all.

Didn't even know Reddick's press conference was today and that it had already happened.
Anyways, regarding Reddick's hiring, this is a meme referencing what happened during HOTD Season 2, Episode 2 from last night. Spoiler bracket added:

https://twitter.com/FitzGSN_/status/1805058441574072580