Football Thread | September '22 | RIP Queen

By Oddinho Go To PostI’ll buy one if they give 100% of proceeds to families whose lives were harmed by the exploitation of workers

In three months, England may be searching for a new manager.

Gareth Southgate has been in charge for six years and has coached more games than any England manager since Bobby Robson, which is a good innings for someone who initially wasn’t sure he wanted the job.

Southgate has a contract until Euro 2024 but that doesn’t really matter. “Contracts are irrelevant in football,” he acknowledged this week. “If results aren’t good enough, then you accept that’s time to part ways.”

Recent results haven’t been good enough, and if they continue not being good enough, England are not in a good position to appoint a replacement.

The bookmakers’ favourites are Graham Potter and Eddie Howe, which made more sense a year ago. Although it’s conceivable either might be available in 2024, they probably won’t be free this winter.

Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard haven’t quite proven themselves yet. Sean Dyche’s tactical approach surely isn’t the right fit. Steve Cooper, though successful with England’s youth sides, has barely managed at the top level. Other names in the mix apparently include Mauricio Pochettino, Brendan Rodgers and Thomas Tuchel, none of whom is a particularly likely appointment.

And then there’s the bold choice. If England’s target is to win Euro 2024, the good news is that the English Football Association already employs a two-time European Championship winner, with a record of P12 W12 in the competition. Between those two successes, there was a World Cup final too.

On paper, this manager is perfectly qualified. The caveat is that this manager is female and has achieved these successes in women’s football.

But it’s entirely arguable that Sarina Wiegman’s CV offers more relevant achievements than any of the other potential candidates. Yes, she’s been coaching players of a different gender but is that an overwhelmingly greater shift than moving from club football to international football, as in the case of the aforementioned managers? Should we overlook consistent success in the women’s game in favour of flawed options in the men’s game?

Wiegman has been impressive in both aspects of international management. There are the broad areas that Southgate has generally excelled at: the culture around the squad, handling the media and getting key individuals onside. But there are also the more specific areas Southgate has failed to master.

In particular, Wiegman has proved excellent at making in-game changes to shift matches, something Southgate desperately struggled with in defeats by Croatia in 2018 and Italy in 2021. Her use of specialist super subs worked brilliantly at Euro 2022.

A common refrain from England players during the summer was that Wiegman planned for every situation, whereas often it feels like Southgate has a specific plan from the outset, then flounders as the situation changes.

The other question is whether Wiegman would want the job. Women’s football is not a mere stepping stone to men’s football, and Chelsea manager Emma Hayes reacted incredulously last year when linked with the AFC Wimbledon men’s job. Hayes was blunt: first, they wouldn’t be able to afford her. Second, it would be a step down.

And that was entirely fair because leaving the best women’s side for a struggling League One side would be lunacy. Shifting from the England women’s job to the England men’s job, though, is not the same.

It’s worth asking why Wiegman is in charge of an England side in the first place. There are two reasons: she earns more than she did with the Netherlands and it was an exciting challenge.

It’s hardly unreasonable to think she would be tempted by the same thing again — her salary is around 10 per cent of Southgate’s, and she would have the opportunity to achieve something historic. If asked now, Wiegman will say she’s not interested in the job. Glenn Hoddle and Southgate once said the same.

Some will ask where this would leave England women after their unprecedented success under Wiegman, while others will question whether England men should appoint another foreign coach. But if the FA is happy to do so with the women’s side, it shouldn’t be any different for the men’s team.

There’s also a wider debate about whether coaches who have excelled in the female game can shift to the men’s game but the shift is probably easier at international level than at club level.

There are simply more fundamental differences at club level: the transfer market is very different, the number of games is very different, the level of media scrutiny is very different. In a tactical sense, the gap between men’s and women’s international football is considerably smaller than the gap between men’s and women’s club football.

England wouldn’t be the first to appoint their women’s manager to lead their men’s side. Canada will participate in their first men’s World Cup for 36 years this winter, led by an Englishman, John Herdman. He was previously in charge of the women’s team, taking them to two bronze medals at the Olympics and the quarter-finals of the World Cup. The FA would do well to get in touch with Herdman and ask how he found the switch — and it’s not entirely impossible that, if Canada punch above their weight in Qatar, Herdman himself might come into contention.

It would be foolish to suggest there would be no barriers to Wiegman succeeding with a men’s side, though. If there are questions about whether Roberto De Zerbi’s methods work as well in the Premier League as they did in Serie A, and about how Potter’s style can transition from Brighton’s less renowned players to Chelsea’s stars, it’s fair to ask whether Wiegman’s methods will work as well in men’s football as women’s football.

It’s less about innate differences between men and women and more about the fact there are greater egos in the men’s game, players who have been indulged as future professionals from the age of 10. That’s different to women’s players, many of whom say they grew up not knowing women’s football existed, and sometimes seem disbelieving that they now have the opportunity to compete in front of tens of thousands of fans.

Wiegman’s lack of experience in dealing with male players is an issue but it’s also the only issue. And it’s an issue that can be solved. Southgate is selfless and cares deeply about the long-term success of English football, so should give serious consideration to appointing Wiegman to his coaching staff this winter.

From Southgate’s perspective, it would potentially help England’s major tactical problem — their inability to change games from the bench. From Wiegman’s perspective, regardless of her future employment, the opportunity to experience a men’s World Cup would surely be instructive. Southgate and Wiegman have been in regular contact since her appointment, discussing coaching ideas and delivering a coaching seminar together. There appears to be great mutual respect between them.

As Southgate said this time last year, the FA is “nowhere near where it should be” in terms of gender equality, adding that just two of the 40 members of England’s coaching staff are female. He was probably referring to Charlotte Cowie, England’s head of medicine, and Emily Webb, the team manager. That rather summarises where men’s football is at the moment; entrusting women in terms of medical roles and logistics, but not in terms of specific football expertise.

It’s difficult to find examples of women who will be involved in any kind of coaching role for any team in Qatar this winter, which feels like an anachronism. Are we really expected to believe that there isn’t a single woman anywhere in the world who might be useful to one of the 32 teams? In first place on a notional worldwide list of insightful women in football would probably be Wiegman. The FA already employs her.

Let’s put it another way. If it was Wiegman’s predecessor, Phil Neville, who had guided England’s women’s side to Euro 2022 success, people would think nothing of Neville gaining extra experience by working on Southgate’s coaching team, and being considered as his potential replacement. If Wiegman isn’t considered in the same manner, some level of discrimination is at play.

But this isn’t really an argument for gender equality. It’s merely an argument that, if you want success at international level, appointing someone who has demonstrated success at international level makes more sense than appointing someone who hasn’t demonstrated success and hasn’t managed at international level. It doesn’t seem that outlandish.

By n8 dogg Go To Postbecause men are fragile cunts more than anything imho

By Oddinho Go To PostWhat would she do about all the floppy dicks swinging about in the locker room

By Willkiller Go To PostThought experiment Re Wiegman aside, it really is an interesting conversation. I have absolutely no idea who the next England manager will be…

By Laboured Go To Post

https://twitter.com/AndyMitten/status/1575458240246194176?s=20&t=pMj-pAiWYU-r1JDM_bGsBg

By Laboured Go To PostFunny that it's all about speed ratings. Weird too because that data (both top speed and accelaration curves) ought to be actually purchaseable and accurate.

By Batong Go To PostWhat type of surface did they train on before, xpike?

By Laboured Go To PostFunny that it's all about speed ratings. Weird too because that data (both top speed and accelaration curves) ought to be actually purchaseable and accurate.