So did you not read where I said "Lebron is the best all around player to ever play the game. Better than Kobe, Jordan, or Wilt or Magic"?
His Cleveland circa 2009 version wasn't, but him in the last 3 years is. Easily. That being said. It's absolutely fucking relevant that the competition he's faced would make George Mikan blush with envy and that he may very well end up as the only top 10 all time great with a finals losing record.
The people arguing that it doesn't matter that he's playing in the modern ABA are reaching and grasping at straws to defend/deflect the data that's been shown on this thread the last few days. That's what I don't understand.
His Cleveland circa 2009 version wasn't, but him in the last 3 years is. Easily. That being said. It's absolutely fucking relevant that the competition he's faced would make George Mikan blush with envy and that he may very well end up as the only top 10 all time great with a finals losing record.
The people arguing that it doesn't matter that he's playing in the modern ABA are reaching and grasping at straws to defend/deflect the data that's been shown on this thread the last few days. That's what I don't understand.
MIami Bron was amazing, he has taken a noticeable step back this season tho, first time shooting under .500 since his 08/09 season.
By Moris Go To PostMIami Bron was amazing, he has taken a noticeable step back this season tho, first time shooting under .500 since his 08/09 season.
True, but beating Atlanta and Chicago basically alone is more impressive than beating 2012 EC with Bosh and Wade.
So I included this year in as well.
That reminds me, remember when people were arguing that his shooting efficiency would go back up to Miami days and that I was overreacting in the beginning of the season when I said those days are done? Good times.
By lovingsteam Go To PostI don't know why it's so difficult to accept that LeBron has been a better player than Kobe Bryant in many ways. If I am starting a team and the top two picks are between Kobe and LeBron, I'm taking LeBron 100 out of 100 times. I wouldn't even flinch or question. If we're measuring purely on skill and what each player brings to a team I don't see how anyone can argue for Kobe. Now, I do believe Kobe has been one of the top 10-15 players of all time and the second greatest shooting guard but he is a scorer. I'm not taking his defense over LeBron. I'm not taking his passing ability over LeBron. I'm not taking his efficiency over LeBron's.
If I'm wanting a player to push his team in the last 1-2 minutes of a game and literally WILL himself and his team? I'll take Kobe. Last minute situation? Kobe. But LeBron is just a better player. I'm a Lakers fan at my core and Kobe is my favorite Laker besides Magic but come on now.
The will and determination to win goes a long way. Just look at Harden. Dude gave up multiple times throughout the playoffs and Josh fucking Smith and Corey Brewer had to will that team to victories.
I think LeBron is the more skilled between the two but I'm not betting against the guy with the determination and mindset to accept nothing less than perfection whether its sports, video games or life in general.
Even for Kobe haters that want to pretend his first 3 rings don't count, they both have the same amount. Only difference is Kobe came out of the West and was able to beat the teams LeBron couldn't
By Vahagn Go To PostSo did you not read where I said "Lebron is the best all around player to ever play the game. Better than Kobe, Jordan, or Wilt or Magic"?
His Cleveland circa 2009 version wasn't, but him in the last 3 years is. Easily. That being said. It's absolutely fucking relevant that the competition he's faced would make George Mikan blush with envy and that he may very well end up as the only top 10 all time great with a finals losing record.
The people arguing that it doesn't matter that he's playing in the modern ABA are reaching and grasping at straws to defend/deflect the data that's been shown on this thread the last few days. That's what I don't understand.
My apologies.
By Vahagn Go To PostThat's not what was argued. What was argued is that you there are statistics being placed in front of you that you're ignoring because they don't favor Lebron, so you're calling them nonsense and moving forward.
You can think Lebron > Kobe. That's totally fine. And he is a better all around basketball player. But lebron's a better all around basketball player than anyone who's ever played the game. Jordan, Magic, Russell, and Wilt included.
But when shown data that shows lebron's historically easy path throughout the playoffs and to dismiss them as irrelevant simply because you like Lebron so damn much means your "objectivity and Analytics are important in all discussions" goes out the window.
This isn't as simple as you're presenting it. Some statistics are better or worse depending on what context you're actually examining, and the questions you're asking are going to fundamentally change what information you actually need. With that in mind what is it exactly that people are getting all fussy about? Are we asking about how skilled and talented Lebron is? Are we asking how he has performed in his career compared to other historical greats? If so, in what way and under what conditions? Entire careers? Regular season? Playoff performance? Finals performance? In relation to and against other elite teams? Against weaker teams? Against his conference or against the league in general? Are we even talking about performance or are we not instead talking about accomplishments? How impressive are Lebron's career accomplishments? His playoff accomplishments? His accomplishments compared to his peers? Compared to other historical greats? How much have his accomplishments been modified by the teams he's played with and against? How much do his accomplishments matter as opposed to his performance? How do you even measure a player's performance? Box score statistics? Advanced analytics? The eye test? The testimony of other more knowledgeable minds? How much do accomplishments factor into it?
How do you even determine an NBA All Time Great and how great they are compared to others? Is it a function of skill? A function of performance? Career accomplishments? Intangible factors that may contribute to performance but which otherwise can't be quantified? How do you juggle each of these factors? Do you place a premium on one over the other? If so, by how much? Is it all really just a subjective amalgamation of factors that are weighted differently depending on the person? Are there mathematical constructs we can look to that seek to quantify factors like these and provide a more fine and detailed model by which to compare players? If so, how much do you believe in the methodology of those systems? Why? Is there a perceived or known gray area that you can't get over? Is there bias in your own subjective rankings that color how you perceive these players?
Now more to the point of this discussion, people keep putting up that graphic of 50-win teams Lebron has beaten as if that's an indictment of him. As if I'm supposed to just accept those kind of numbers at face value. And yes, I know that that works the other way too with the "Lebron has reached five straight Finals" deal and while I think that's an impressive accomplishment if only because of its rarity, there is real context there, and that's that the East has generally been pretty bad these past five seasons. I just don't think factors that are not in his control should be held against him when it comes to how he stacks up against other historical greats, but apparently others feel otherwise, so there you go.
jordan only won in shit east too..............
and in jordan time east was better than west..........
and in jordan time east was better than west..........
By jman2050 Go To PostThis isn't as simple as you're presenting it. Some statistics are better or worse depending on what context you're actually examining, and the questions you're asking are going to fundamentally change what information you actually need. With that in mind what is it exactly that people are getting all fussy about? Are we asking about how skilled and talented Lebron is? Are we asking how he has performed in his career compared to other historical greats? If so, in what way and under what conditions? Entire careers? Regular season? Playoff performance? Finals performance? In relation to and against other elite teams? Against weaker teams? Against his conference or against the league in general? Are we even talking about performance or are we not instead talking about accomplishments? How impressive are Lebron's career accomplishments? His playoff accomplishments? His accomplishments compared to his peers? Compared to other historical greats? How much have his accomplishments been modified by the teams he's played with and against? How much do his accomplishments matter as opposed to his performance? How do you even measure a player's performance? Box score statistics? Advanced analytics? The eye test? The testimony of other more knowledgeable minds? How much do accomplishments factor into it?
How do you even determine an NBA All Time Great and how great they are compared to others? Is it a function of skill? A function of performance? Career accomplishments? Intangible factors that may contribute to performance but which otherwise can't be quantified? How do you juggle each of these factors? Do you place a premium on one over the other? If so, by how much? Is it all really just a subjective amalgamation of factors that are weighted differently depending on the person? Are there mathematical constructs we can look to that seek to quantify factors like these and provide a more fine and detailed model by which to compare players? If so, how much do you believe in the methodology of those systems? Why? Is there a perceived or known gray area that you can't get over? Is there bias in your own subjective rankings that color how you perceive these players?
Now more to the point of this discussion, people keep putting up that graphic of 50-win teams Lebron has beaten as if that's an indictment of him. As if I'm supposed to just accept those kind of numbers at face value. And yes, I know that that works the other way too with the "Lebron has reached five straight Finals" deal and while I think that's an impressive accomplishment if only because of its rarity, there is real context there, and that's that the East has generally been pretty bad these past five seasons. I just don't think factors that are not in his control should be held against him when it comes to how he stacks up against other historical greats, but apparently others feel otherwise, so there you go.
I'm gonna leave all those questions alone because there are far too many to answer and just deal with the bolded.
I'm not blaming Lebron per se, but I am stating that this should absolutely be a factor in discussions.
Again, it's not Kobe's "fault" that he had Shaq for 7 years and then a crap team for 3. But I understand people who say things like "Lebron getting 4 chips is the same as his 5 because of Shaq"
That's not Kobe's fault either, but I'm sure you've made a statement like that once or twice.
It's not Kobe's fault that he had to wait 10 years into his career to be given his own contending caliber team when most other all time greats had it within their first 3 or 4 years. But that Shaq thing is still going to be a factor when comparing against guys like Jordan or Russell who were the defacto best players on their team for every chip.
Simply recognize that tons of post season success against objectively bad teams isn't as impressive as tons of post season success against objectively good ones and that there are plenty of factors that aren't someone's fault necessarily but which still create differences that should be taken into account.
By RBK Go To PostIs Kobe even better than prime TMac?kobe is a wannabe
By Vahagn Go To PostI'm gonna leave all those questions alone because there are far too many to answer and just deal with the bolded.
I guess I should clarify that most of that stuff was rhetorical, just giving guys something to think about. Point is there are a ton of factors to consider and nobody is going to have the same exact answers to how much everything matters and what it all means. We just gotta justify our stance to whoever we're debating/arguing with.
By spooks Go To PostYikes. Not surprising though.silver made the call to ariza.
By RBK Go To PostIs Kobe even better than prime TMac?Ah i loved the tmac vs kobe days.
By RBK Go To PostIs Kobe even better than prime TMac?It was only debatable those last 2 seasons in Orlando when he was taking less FGA cause of GP and Malone.
You wanna talk about players carrying teams, Lebron ain't shit. Tmac on those Orlando teams in the early 00's, now THOSE were some awful teams that had to be dragged into the playoffs kicking and screaming
By diehard Go To Postyaaay more Kobe talkNo kidding.
Nothing is more tedious than comparing players across eras.
By RBK Go To PostIs Kobe even better than prime TMac?#freeRBK
By jman2050 Go To PostYou wanna talk about players carrying teams, Lebron ain't shit. Tmac on those Orlando teams in the early 00's, now THOSE were some awful teams that had to be dragged into the playoffs kicking and screamingHow DARE you besmirch Pat Garrity and Michael Doleac like that.
Klay Thompson diagnosed with a concussion, no timetable for return
By Zach Harper | NBA writer
May 29, 2015 4:08 pm ET
fuck.......................... warriors willl lost now
cavs in 6........
By Zach Harper | NBA writer
May 29, 2015 4:08 pm ET
fuck.......................... warriors willl lost now
cavs in 6........
the greatest leader is one who recognizes its smallness, draws strength from his humility and experience
lebron isn't the best overall player i've ever seen.
you're letting his scoring ability skew your judgement.
imo, the best overall player ive ever considering defense and offense is
Scottie Pippen.
prime scottie vs prime lebron 1on1, and i choose scottie.
he's had the biggest impact during the bulls run.
you're letting his scoring ability skew your judgement.
imo, the best overall player ive ever considering defense and offense is
Scottie Pippen.
prime scottie vs prime lebron 1on1, and i choose scottie.
he's had the biggest impact during the bulls run.
By K@do #TeamTowns Go To Postlebron isn't the best overall player i've ever seen.I guess you don't care about passing.
you're letting his scoring ability skew your judgement.
imo, the best overall player ive ever see considering defense and offense is
Scottie Pippen.
prime scottie vs prime lebron 1on1, and i choose scottie.
he's had the biggest impact during the bulls run.
And why would lebron scoring ability hurt his case? Lol kado.
By psychintellect Go To PostI guess you don't care about passing.scottie was a point forward...plus the point role isn't as dominant in the triangle.
And why would lebron scoring ability hurt his case? Lol kado.
and because best overall, including offense and defense.
lebron's defense has always been above average at best.
that hurts his case, not his scoring ability.
By K@do #TeamTowns Go To Postbecause blocking shots is the only definition of a good defender.You are jokes
By pilonv1 Go To Post
That Mark Jackson swipe damn.
By Moris Go To PostDwight's foul in game 5 got upgraded, will miss the first game of next season.LOL of course they do that when it doesn't even matter any more.
When players pull crap at the end of the playoffs they need to make the punishment actually matter by suspending them for their next playoff game, whenever that occurs.
By pilonv1 Go To PostHand down man down.
By KingGondo Go To PostA palmetto bug?
By db Go To Posthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_woods_cockroachI see.
They die way too easily to be real cockroaches.
By pilonv1 Go To Post
By Forever Go To PostI see.what you're telling me is that roaches are like the rockets?
They die way too easily to be real cockroaches.
Golden State should be investigated and fined heavily, for not testing Klay for a concussion, even when his fucking ear was bleeding.
Now he's vomiting and shit, they could've killed the fucking guy. Ugh I'm so pissed.
Now he's vomiting and shit, they could've killed the fucking guy. Ugh I'm so pissed.
By kjack Go To PostGolden State should be investigated and fined heavily, for not testing Klay for a concussion, even when his fucking ear was bleeding.And what should happen to Delly?
Now he's vomiting and shit, they could've killed the fucking guy. Ugh I'm so pissed.
By jman2050 Go To PostLebron is an all time great and the quality of competition doesn't change that.Go 6/6 in the Finals?
I don't know why this is so hard to fathom. You play whoever is in front of you, what the hell else is Lebron supposed to do? Would his career look better if he had failed to make two of those lost Finals series and end up 2-1 in the Finals instead? No, because that would be insane.
By reilo Go To PostGo 6/6 in the Finals?that's unfair, though, because the East was shit and hi teams weren't top 2 worthy.
By Mamba Go To Postthat's unfair, though, because the East was shit and hi teams weren't top 2 worthy.That comes part with the territory. Like I mentioned before, you can't praise him for 5 straight Finals appearances and how amazing that makes him and then ignore all context surrounding it.
By Mamba Go To Postthat's unfair, though, because the East was shit and hi teams weren't top 2 worthy.of course its fair,
people argue that you can't blame lebron for playing teams in front of him,
yet he gets a pass for losing 4 times in the finals?
By diehard Go To PostPutting my hate into Rondo and Melo years ago and not Lebron was a great decision.why would you hate melo?
