By JesalR Go To Post
By Perfect Blue Go To PostWho knew the process all along was just spending on playersThis is where Wenger failed
Problem with ‘Arteta must get top four’ is the nuance it lacks. You got a club literally owned by a state at the top of the league, Liverpool are run exceptionally well, Chelsea have a billionaire owner and something to prove, United are still the biggest club in the league and Spurs have an outstanding manager. It’s optically ‘a failure’ for any of them to miss out, but two will. If Arteta missed out by GD or by one point, has he failed? What it they come fifth and City come fourth? Who has failed more in that situation?
All that should be expected as an Arsenal fan is improvement to the point challenging for the top 4 is a sustainable one rather than hope.
All that should be expected as an Arsenal fan is improvement to the point challenging for the top 4 is a sustainable one rather than hope.
By Plasma Go To PostNah this is it, he's had enough time now he has to deliver.
I’d be happy with him showing further improvements as a manager and the team being a lot more consistent in terms of style of play, than just saying getting 4th.
If he doesn’t show improvements and we play like shit, then I wouldn’t care about getting top four.
By n8 dogg Go To PostProblem with ‘Arteta must get top four’ is the nuance it lacks. You got a club literally owned by a state at the top of the league, Liverpool are run exceptionally well, Chelsea have a billionaire owner and something to prove, United are still the biggest club in the league and Spurs have an outstanding manager. It’s optically ‘a failure’ for any of them to miss out, but two will. If Arteta missed out by GD or by one point, has he failed? What it they come fifth and City come fourth? Who has failed more in that situation?
All that should be expected as an Arsenal fan is improvement to the point challenging for the top 4 is a sustainable one rather than hope.
Spot on.
It is why I didn’t understand the ‘Arteta In’ if we get too four argument last season from some. You either like the direction he has the team going in and think he is a good manager, or you don’t.
Just playing CL so we can act bigger but actually not be any goos is worse than missing out but having improvements.
By n8 dogg Go To PostProblem with ‘Arteta must get top four’ is the nuance it lacks. You got a club literally owned by a state at the top of the league, Liverpool are run exceptionally well, Chelsea have a billionaire owner and something to prove, United are still the biggest club in the league and Spurs have an outstanding manager. It’s optically ‘a failure’ for any of them to miss out, but two will. If Arteta missed out by GD or by one point, has he failed? What it they come fifth and City come fourth? Who has failed more in that situation?Why wouldn't Arsenal fans say "Why can't we be incredibly well run?" Or "Why can't we have an outstanding manager?".
All that should be expected as an Arsenal fan is improvement to the point challenging for the top 4 is a sustainable one rather than hope.
They can't much about the wealth gap, whether it's fair or foul, but there isn't something preventing them from matching Spurs or Liverpool
By n8 dogg Go To PostProblem with ‘Arteta must get top four’ is the nuance it lacks. You got a club literally owned by a state at the top of the league, Liverpool are run exceptionally well, Chelsea have a billionaire owner and something to prove, United are still the biggest club in the league and Spurs have an outstanding manager. It’s optically ‘a failure’ for any of them to miss out, but two will. If Arteta missed out by GD or by one point, has he failed? What it they come fifth and City come fourth? Who has failed more in that situation?📠
All that should be expected as an Arsenal fan is improvement to the point challenging for the top 4 is a sustainable one rather than hope.
By n8 dogg Go To PostProblem with ‘Arteta must get top four’ is the nuance it lacks. You got a club literally owned by a state at the top of the league, Liverpool are run exceptionally well, Chelsea have a billionaire owner and something to prove, United are still the biggest club in the league and Spurs have an outstanding manager.I agree with your overall point but this part ignores the context and nuance around what kind of club Arsenal is. They also have a billionaire owner and are one of the wealthiest clubs in the world with a fanbase just as comparable to any other club. There’s no reason to not expect Arsenal to be spoken about on the same level as those other clubs.
Either top 4 or EL win, but we have invested way too much into the project for our board to go "oh well what can you do" if we miss our targets
By sohois Go To PostWhy wouldn't Arsenal fans say "Why can't we be incredibly well run?" Or "Why can't we have an outstanding manager?".
They can't much about the wealth gap, whether it's fair or foul, but there isn't something preventing them from matching Spurs or Liverpool
Well yeah, of course they can. But that’s not based on an arbitrary target of ‘top 4 or he’s gone’. The hope should be that this season proves Arteta is developing into an outstanding manager and the club is well run, and both those things can happen without Arsenal finishing top 4.
Edit: same answer to PB. The point I’m making is not ‘poor little Arsenal’. It’s that 6 clubs have every reason to make top 4, two will have to miss out, and deeming the season a failure because of that is too binary.
By sohois Go To PostWhy wouldn't Arsenal fans say "Why can't we be incredibly well run?" Or "Why can't we have an outstanding manager?".
They can't much about the wealth gap, whether it's fair or foul, but there isn't something preventing them from matching Spurs or Liverpool
Well aren’t we matching Spurs and Liverpool now?
I wan’t to be incredibly well run and have an outstanding manager. And I think both of those areas are improving.
By Xpike Go To PostEither top 4 or EL win, but we have invested way too much into the project for our board to go "oh well what can you do" if we miss our targets
As always, if our board wants those kinds of results they need to be spending silly money on silly targets. we ain't doing that.
Arteta has been backed well enough to at least have achieved top 4 already
we're talking about top 4, not winning the league
Someone do the math but I believe hes close to half a billion spent already a have finished 8th twice and 5th.
If he can't do it, just move on and go for another one. Or will we just keep giving him money forever and continue to fail?
If Spurs can have a world class manager, why can't we? We're spending on players, if it's not working, spend on a manager.
we're talking about top 4, not winning the league
Someone do the math but I believe hes close to half a billion spent already a have finished 8th twice and 5th.
If he can't do it, just move on and go for another one. Or will we just keep giving him money forever and continue to fail?
If Spurs can have a world class manager, why can't we? We're spending on players, if it's not working, spend on a manager.
By n8 dogg Go To PostWell yeah, of course they can. But that’s not based on an arbitrary target of ‘top 4 or he’s gone’. The hope should be that this season proves Arteta is developing into an outstanding manager and the club is well run, and both those things can happen without Arsenal finishing top 4.
Edit: same answer to PB. The point I’m making is not ‘poor little Arsenal’. It’s that 6 clubs have every reason to make top 4, two will have to miss out, and deeming the season a failure because of that is too binary.
Thank you.
You just get it.
If Arteta goes toe to toe with Conte and wins both games vs Spurs this season, develops into a really great manager who improves his players but finishes behind City, Chelsea, Liverpool and United (one or two on GD or by a point), is he a failure? Of course he isn’t. He’ll have been an improving manager.
This is just all so reductive. Shanks is bang on - United finished second with Mou and it was fucking miserable because the style of play was shit, the atmosphere was shit, and there was no progress being made. Last season was shit - not because we finished sixth, bur because we had a fucking experience every week with players who couldn’t be fucked. If we finish sixth this year but the playstyle is better, youth players improve, signings do well, then it’s a million times a better season despite looking the same on paper.
This is just all so reductive. Shanks is bang on - United finished second with Mou and it was fucking miserable because the style of play was shit, the atmosphere was shit, and there was no progress being made. Last season was shit - not because we finished sixth, bur because we had a fucking experience every week with players who couldn’t be fucked. If we finish sixth this year but the playstyle is better, youth players improve, signings do well, then it’s a million times a better season despite looking the same on paper.
By Crusher Go To PostCity
Liverpool
Spurs
United
Bookmark this post.
By sohois Go To PostWhy wouldn't Arsenal fans say "Why can't we be incredibly well run?" Or "Why can't we have an outstanding manager?".Spot on.
They can't much about the wealth gap, whether it's fair or foul, but there isn't something preventing them from matching Spurs or Liverpool
📠
The longer arsenal are out of the cl, the harder it becomes. Yes the deck may be a little stacked against arsenal, but that's exactly the job arsenal hired him for, and the job he's been incredibly well backed for
Progression from last year is finishing in the top 4 and bettering Arsenal's attack. If he doesn't progress or even regresses, he's on borrowed time surely.
Maybe the circumstances will afford him another chance, but 4th had usually been a battle between not particularly perfect teams. If he can't bridge that gap, what's next?
Success for arsenal is nebulous anyway. I think there have to be some standards - for example not finishing outside EL spaces at this point, but I don't think we're simply in the place in terms of players to say something like he needs top 4. They aren't that good lol
I think Arteta should have done better than he has, and there’s been every argument for sacking him. But that isn’t because he hasn’t got top 4; it’s because he’s been so far away from challenging clubs with the same resources as Arsenal.
If he doesn’t get top 4 for the next three seasons and all three of them are because there was a point or two in it but Saka is improving, play is consistently good, etc., that seems to me a more sustainable target than ‘get top 4’.
Of course Arsenal want top 4. Of course that is a marker of success. But this binary Arteta in or out based on it is not the right approach to running a football club.
If he doesn’t get top 4 for the next three seasons and all three of them are because there was a point or two in it but Saka is improving, play is consistently good, etc., that seems to me a more sustainable target than ‘get top 4’.
Of course Arsenal want top 4. Of course that is a marker of success. But this binary Arteta in or out based on it is not the right approach to running a football club.
By inky Go To Postpoor wee club arsenal can't be expected to compete with the meanie big bois
fucking hell
Who is saying this, lol?
At what point do you say ok this isn't working though? Because he's been here three seasons and we've had two 8th place finishes and one 5th place finish. If he finishes 5th again (or lower) we haven't really progressed have we? Regardless of points, goal difference or whatever at some point you have to draw a line under it and get somebody else in.
Even when you look at last season you can say well we were within a few points of getting CL so that's good enough, but is it? When we had it in our hands and the team choked at the last hurdle. What does that say about how good of a coach is?
For the record I would rather not sack him, I'd much rather he did well this season and got us back into the Champions League but at a certain point you have to say enough is enough.
Even when you look at last season you can say well we were within a few points of getting CL so that's good enough, but is it? When we had it in our hands and the team choked at the last hurdle. What does that say about how good of a coach is?
For the record I would rather not sack him, I'd much rather he did well this season and got us back into the Champions League but at a certain point you have to say enough is enough.
By n8 dogg Go To PostWho is saying this, lol?you
It is far too simplistic to say "top 4 or Arteta out", but the club's internal target will absolutely be top 4 and their business shows that. It's fair for the fans to say the same.
But of course there is more nuance to that.
But of course there is more nuance to that.
By Xpike Go To Postwe're probably going to spend 100m+ this window, it is silly money
All that money is being spent on wise but not extravagant additions to our team, broadly.
By n8 dogg Go To PostIf he doesn’t get top 4 for the next three seasons and all three of them are because there was a point or two in it but Saka is improving, play is consistently good, etc., that seems to me a more sustainable target than ‘get top 4’.If it's been a decade since arsenal were last in the Cl, 6 years under Arteta, then it sure as hell isn't sustainable for arsenal. They spend money commensurate with the biggest clubs in the world, but are already slipping away in terms of revenues. The players they buy and keep will depend massively on what competitions they're playing in. It's nice to say improving Saka will be enough, but will he want to stick around?
Of course Arsenal want top 4. Of course that is a marker of success. But this binary Arteta in or out based on it is not the right approach to running a football club.
By Plasma Go To PostAt what point do you say ok this isn't working though? Because he's been here three seasons and we've had two 8th place finishes and one 5th place finish. If he finishes 5th again (or lower) we haven't really progressed have we? Regardless of points, goal difference or whatever at some point you have to draw a line under it and get somebody else in.
Even when you look at last season you can say well we were within a few points of getting CL so that's good enough, but is it? When we had it in our hands and the team choked at the last hurdle. What does that say about how good of a coach is?
For the record I would rather not sack him, I'd much rather he did well this season and got us back into the Champions League but at a certain point you have to say enough is enough.
If we don’t play consistent football or finish 7th then get rid of him. We should have a clear style of play that we can impose against all teams. And if he looks lost out there, then again, get rid of him.
By Plasma Go To PostAt what point do you say ok this isn't working though? Because he's been here three seasons and we've had two 8th place finishes and one 5th place finish. If he finishes 5th again (or lower) we haven't really progressed have we? Regardless of points, goal difference or whatever at some point you have to draw a line under it and get somebody else in.
Even when you look at last season you can say well we were within a few points of getting CL so that's good enough, but is it? When we had it in our hands and the team choked at the last hurdle. What does that say about how good the coach is?
For the record I would rather not sack him, I'd much rather he did well this season and got us back into the Champions League but at a certain point you have to say enough is enough.
This is a different argument to the one I am making. If Arteta continues in the same vein, miles off the best clubs in the league, then he should be sacked whether he finishes fourth or not. If Arsenal improve and are closer to the top of the league in terms of sustainable results and quality of his coaching, then he should keep his job irrespective of where they finish.
If he finishes 5th again but it’s on 77 points and they lose out on goal difference to Man United, and Saka/Odegaard/Martinelli have all shone and Jesus has scored 15-20 goals, then that is an improvement on last year.
If they finish fourth with 65 points because United and Spurs have been dogshit and they limp pathetically to the position, with dull football and failed transfers that only look good in comparison to abject failures at other top 6 clubs, then there is less of an argument for keeping him.
I’ll reiterate - I think Arteta is lucky not to have been sacked already. But not because he finished 8th, 8th and 5th; because of the manner in which he finished in those positions.
By inky Go To Postyou
No I didn’t.
By n8 dogg Go To PostIs this the bloke Newcastle wanted?
Yeah, we agreed a fee twice. Then the agent decided to make wild requests, pretty happy we walked away it's important at this stage we don't establish ourselves as a stupid club when it comes to bending to silly financial requests.
Not bothered about missing out on him as a player, would be silly to pretend i've seen much of him. Highly rated but I think he'd have been very raw in the PL for a couple of years
By Shanks D Zoro Go To PostIf we don’t play consistent football or finish 7th then get rid of him. We should have a clear style of play that we can impose against all teams. And if he looks lost out there, then again, get rid of him.
You pretty much defined Artetas reign so far here. Inconsistent, out of his depth, can't impose against top teams, finished 8th twice, etc.
I think he already had proper backing and time to improve on all of the above, which imo he hasnt.
By Hixx Go To PostThere's always Dwight Gayle.
Arteta is a waste of time a club like Arsenal should have a manager worthy of their stature. Not some ex-player who got his job because Pep let him put the training cones out. Madness and an unreal lack of ambition.
Lampard wasn’t even as bad as Arteta and we sacked him with the quickness
Lampard wasn’t even as bad as Arteta and we sacked him with the quickness
By Perfect Blue Go To PostArteta is a waste of time a club like Arsenal should have a manager worthy of their stature. Not some ex-player who got his job because Pep let him put the training cones out. Madness and an unreal lack of ambition.
Lampard wasn’t even as bad as Arteta and we sacked him with the quickness
I probably agree lol, but again - separate point to the one I’m making. He is still there, so he should be judged on whether he becomes a better coach.
By Perfect Blue Go To PostArteta is a waste of time a club like Arsenal should have a manager worthy of their stature. Not some ex-player who got his job because Pep let him put the training cones out. Madness and an unreal lack of ambition.Counterpoint: Arsenal have no standards
Lampard wasn’t even as bad as Arteta and we sacked him with the quickness
By n8 dogg Go To Postthat saudi gene
"He's guessed it, from those clues"
By n8 dogg Go To PostI’ll reiterate - I think Arteta is lucky not to have been sacked already. But not because he finished 8th, 8th and 5th; because of the manner in which he finished in those positions.
And we've been also saying that. The 5th spot last season didnt feel like improvement to me. We finished 5th having no Europe and getting knocked out of the FA Cup on the 3rd round I think, really early. We had a very good schedule the second half of the season and still failed to get a, let's be real here, pretty easy top 4 considering the competition and the facts I mentioned.
Before the beginning of last season, top 5 would have been a decent result. But the way the season went, it really wasnt.
Finishing 8th: there's no manner to spin and make it a good season, only if you win the Champions League.
He has been very lucky to not get sacked yet, very very lucky. Any other team on the top 6 wouldve sacked him already, without a shadow of a doubt.
By Vini.lad Go To PostYou pretty much defined Artetas reign so far here. Inconsistent, out of his depth, can't impose against top teams, finished 8th twice, etc.
I think he already had proper backing and time to improve on all of the above, which imo he hasnt.
If you don’t want to see any improvements last season then that is on you.
And I think you are forgetting the situation he was in the first two seasons.
Joins the club mid season and then is disrupted by Covid but still manages to secure a trophy. And I know you say fuck the FA Cup, but still that season is more successful than anything Tottenham has done since the early 90s.
Then the second season, fans are banned and still in a pandemic.
Third season we finally return to normal and we get to see improvements in term of the club identifying targets, improving the style of play, and imposing our will more, and fighting for fourth until the end of the season.
I am looking forward to this season to see what he and the club do.