By inky Go To PostI, for one, I'm willing to let nonja die for you m9. <3And you have my clegg.
By FligureSkatingFlan Go To PostIt's some Dunning-Kruger shit for any of us to believe we have a strong grasp on Putin's intentions and plans.good ass post
Where's the supposed land being grabbed - the separatists republics of Donetsk and Luhansk, the entirety of Donbas, or the whole of Ukraine? And in what capacity is it being grabbed - to become part of Russian territory, to operate as proxies, or some other arrangements, potentially varying across different regions of what we currently consider the whole of Ukraine? Pretending we know the answers to any of these questions at this point is foolish.
Like others have mentioned, the repeated expansions of NATO over the past few decades have unquestionably created the surrounding circumstances for this issue. And all of this was foreseeable and preventable from the beginning. I think it's worth returning to the famous warning by George Kennan - the guy who engineered the US's containment policy for the USSR during the cold war - about what would happen if NATO expanded in the 90s when Russia was an ally, not an enemy:Instead of heeding any of this advice, the US and its allies have spent decades manufacturing a needless conflict - expanding NATO in four successive waves, arming Russia's neighbors, probably aiding and inflaming the so-called color revolutions (considering the long sordid history of the CIA), and withdrawing from treaties regarding drone spycraft, anti-ballistic missiles, and intermediate-range nuclear weapons.
The saddest part is that it's the Ukrainians who receive the worst of it - yet another people crushed under the endless proxy wars between Washington and Moscow.
just hoping the humanitarian aspect of all this isn't bungled at the borders at this point
By Laboured Go To Posthttps://twitter.com/maxwellstrachan/status/1497262428316319754?s=20&t=bwldWW5cic7yivXxcNx5AQGive #Metaverse war a chance!
By Burt The Samurai Go To PostLol this is just a fucking game to them
:lol
they should rename the EU to union of the bitch mades.
Great to live in a system that elevates people who will sacrifice lives to sell handbags to the very top of society. And tbh it's only a few steps removed from their day-to-day, people expect them to start valuing humanity when bombs are dropping?
By Old King Rob Go To PostWait that helmet thing wasn’t a joke?5000 helmets m8
By Old King Rob Go To PostWait that helmet thing wasn’t a joke?
Leader of the free world that Angela Merkel
I find the NATO aggression arguments weak. I mean I get it, but clearly NATO wasn’t really a threat. Anyone think NATO does anything if he goes after Estonia next?
By Old King Rob Go To PostWait that helmet thing wasn’t a joke?Its worse
They were going to send safety jackets, up untill they found out there own troops curently deployed did not have enough. So to not send anything at all, they came up with the helmets.
By Fenderputty Go To PostLeader of the free world that Angela Merkelbruh
I find the NATO aggression arguments weak. I mean I get it, but clearly NATO wasn’t really a threat. Anyone think NATO does anything if he goes after Estonia next?
take a step outside of the us perspective for a second. nato is scary as fuck lol. people were shook regarding turkey's instability for a reason
Anon hacked Russian ministry? Can’t find anything official
I’m just kinda down lol. Shut sucks. China goes after Taiwan and man. Feels like nobody really wants to fuck with an aggressive nuclear power. Which I mean duh
By Lunatic Go To PostFender come the fuck on
By DY_nasty Go To Postbruh
take a step outside of the us perspective for a second. nato is scary as fuck lol. people were shook regarding turkey's instability for a reason
I’m just kinda down lol. Shut sucks. China goes after Taiwan and man. Feels like nobody really wants to fuck with an aggressive nuclear power. Which I mean duh
You know, it’s ok to offer different perspectives and contextualize history in a different light, but sometimes I read stuff like Russia being pushed to act, invasion as a consequence of others actions, NATO the real problem, and I’m like…
Russians run “drills” in somebody else’s backyard all the time, testing response times all the time. They expand their nuclear capabilities, they hack governmental/military service providers.
And that’s not even taking into account what happens inside Putin’s Russia. And lets forget Putin just threatened everyone with a blackout a few days ago.
No one’s pretending NATO and EU are the boys scouts, but what’s up with just two days removed of a fucking invasion throwing the finger at them and demand EU put itself in the firing line?
We supposed to pretend Putin thought of this shit last month or something? Ukraine joining NATO would somehow mean NATO invades Russia or some silly ass shit?
Russians run “drills” in somebody else’s backyard all the time, testing response times all the time. They expand their nuclear capabilities, they hack governmental/military service providers.
And that’s not even taking into account what happens inside Putin’s Russia. And lets forget Putin just threatened everyone with a blackout a few days ago.
No one’s pretending NATO and EU are the boys scouts, but what’s up with just two days removed of a fucking invasion throwing the finger at them and demand EU put itself in the firing line?
We supposed to pretend Putin thought of this shit last month or something? Ukraine joining NATO would somehow mean NATO invades Russia or some silly ass shit?
The worst part about all this is how anyone who gave a damn could see it coming years in advance.
I don't want anyone to glance and boil down some of this discussion down to "This alliance is the real problem". That's not the case. There were objectively better ways to handle this. Noted all along the way too. A lot of people and countries chose to either be indifferent or opportunistic at Ukraine's expense. But more than anything, Russia said they're cool with violence as a solution. Which is bad. I think that's a fair assessment. Someone can tell me if that's a bit too much.
And if we're being explicitly clear and looking back historically, countries have been pulled into east/west shit for FAR less. Central America is a fucking mess based off crimes against ideology ffs. So I think that anyone attempting to talk at a level higher than Russia=Bad shouldn't have to worry about being confused as a sympathizer. No one is doing that. And if they are, it's very very easy to notice the difference.
But a growing military alliance of any kind will obviously create tension. If you're haphazardly growing that without care or caution, things will become inflamed. Managing that has obviously been a failure. The people who created that aren't going to be the ones holding the consequences either. It should be okay to continue to emphasize how ordinary people were failed and by who.
By cRrusheR Go To PostYou know, it’s ok to offer different perspectives and contextualize history in a different light, but sometimes I read stuff like Russia being pushed to act, invasion as a consequence of others actions, NATO the real problem, and I’m like…And the US doesnt run drills all over the place too? Most of what you're talking about is on the board for everyone 😂
Russians run “drills” in somebody else’s backyard all the time, testing response times all the time. They expand their nuclear capabilities, they hack governmental/military service providers.
And that’s not even taking into account what happens inside Putin’s Russia. And lets forget Putin just threatened everyone with a blackout a few days ago.
No one’s pretending NATO and EU are the boys scouts, but what’s up with just two days removed of a fucking invasion throwing the finger at them and demand EU put itself in the firing line?
We supposed to pretend Putin thought of this shit last month or something?
I don't want anyone to glance and boil down some of this discussion down to "This alliance is the real problem". That's not the case. There were objectively better ways to handle this. Noted all along the way too. A lot of people and countries chose to either be indifferent or opportunistic at Ukraine's expense. But more than anything, Russia said they're cool with violence as a solution. Which is bad. I think that's a fair assessment. Someone can tell me if that's a bit too much.
And if we're being explicitly clear and looking back historically, countries have been pulled into east/west shit for FAR less. Central America is a fucking mess based off crimes against ideology ffs. So I think that anyone attempting to talk at a level higher than Russia=Bad shouldn't have to worry about being confused as a sympathizer. No one is doing that. And if they are, it's very very easy to notice the difference.
But a growing military alliance of any kind will obviously create tension. If you're haphazardly growing that without care or caution, things will become inflamed. Managing that has obviously been a failure. The people who created that aren't going to be the ones holding the consequences either. It should be okay to continue to emphasize how ordinary people were failed and by who.
By DY_nasty Go To PostAnd the US doesnt run drills all over the place too? Most of what you're talking about is on the board for everyone 😂
Who said otherwise?
But NATO is scary? To Russia? Ukraine was always in the cards for Putin.
By cRrusheR Go To PostBut NATO is scary? To Russia?Yes. Do you think Putin wants to stop the expansion of NATO just for shits and giggles?
Tell me how a nation is supposed to respond to years of fortifying other countries near and around their border. Everyone can be suss all at once.
I might be hopelessly naïve, but it would seem that there would be no reason to fear NATO unless it was your intention to start some shit.
Hell, Russia could join the damn alliance, too.
Hell, Russia could join the damn alliance, too.
By cRrusheR Go To PostWho said otherwise?If we're going to categorize drilling and other stuff as antagonistic activity, then let's keep the same energy across the board. And if we're calling it readiness or being prepared, then let's also acknowledge why.
But NATO is scary? To Russia? Ukraine was always in the cards for Putin.
By Pac-12 Go To PostHell, Russia could join the damn alliance, too.They tried lol
By Pac-12 Go To PostHell, Russia could join the damn alliance, too.Heck, according to Putin himself! He has stated on many occasions in the early 2000's that he is favourable to the idea.
By Old King Rob Go To PostWait that helmet thing wasn’t a joke?
with respect to our German friends in the EU
By i can get you a toe Go To PostTell me how a nation is supposed to respond to years of fortifying other countries near and around their border. Everyone can be suss all at once.
Seriously? Maybe it’s because Russia has plans. Maybe. Or what? Russia scared of being invaded?
By Perfect Blue Go To PostYes. Do you think Putin wants to stop the expansion of NATO just for shits and giggles?
Putin isn’t invading Ukraine now to stop NATO, but to get ahead of them.
By DY_nasty Go To PostThey tried lol
50s? Because Putin didn’t. Unless toying with the idea and refusing to apply is supposed to make me believe Putin tried lol
Not stop, but get ahead of
bruhhhhhh
why be like this
And ffs you can look up shit being said too https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
Figure skating chad has this awesome post at the top of the page too. pls
bruhhhhhh
why be like this
And ffs you can look up shit being said too https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
Figure skating chad has this awesome post at the top of the page too. pls
First paragraph:
Lmao am I supposed to be here pretending Putin is some simple dude or something, hell is going on?
Yes get ahead Dy, because “stopping Nato” infers that Russia’s actions are defensive, when they aren’t. Ukraine’s NATO membership isn’t even a real thing, but it would have been a way Ukraine could’ve defended itself from Russia. Ukraine joining NATO would in fact have been stopping Russia, and current events couldn’t make that any clearer.
(…)but did not want his country to have to go through the usual application process and stand in line “with a lot of countries that don’t matter”, according to a former secretary general of the transatlantic alliance.
Lmao am I supposed to be here pretending Putin is some simple dude or something, hell is going on?
Yes get ahead Dy, because “stopping Nato” infers that Russia’s actions are defensive, when they aren’t. Ukraine’s NATO membership isn’t even a real thing, but it would have been a way Ukraine could’ve defended itself from Russia. Ukraine joining NATO would in fact have been stopping Russia, and current events couldn’t make that any clearer.
who is asking you to call Putin anything. If it wasn't him, it'd be the next guy. Pac made a joke and got the response back in turn. Its no one's fault it went over your head when you're hopping up and down for the chance to argue something at pundit brain levels
if you don't want to take a second to consider that a military alliance approaching your borders would create tension, then cool. Its ignoring fact, but cool. No one is asking you to cry one out for Russia tho 😂
If you can't or won't grasp that Ukraine/NATO is the start of the current problem set then that's just plugging ears. FSF literally has an article from 1997 calling this shit. Despite what is trending on twitter, history did at one point happen.
if you don't want to take a second to consider that a military alliance approaching your borders would create tension, then cool. Its ignoring fact, but cool. No one is asking you to cry one out for Russia tho 😂
If you can't or won't grasp that Ukraine/NATO is the start of the current problem set then that's just plugging ears. FSF literally has an article from 1997 calling this shit. Despite what is trending on twitter, history did at one point happen.
By cRrusheR Go To PostYou know, it’s ok to offer different perspectives and contextualize history in a different light, but sometimes I read stuff like Russia being pushed to act, invasion as a consequence of others actions, NATO the real problem, and I’m like…10/10 post
Russians run “drills” in somebody else’s backyard all the time, testing response times all the time. They expand their nuclear capabilities, they hack governmental/military service providers.
And that’s not even taking into account what happens inside Putin’s Russia. And lets forget Putin just threatened everyone with a blackout a few days ago.
No one’s pretending NATO and EU are the boys scouts, but what’s up with just two days removed of a fucking invasion throwing the finger at them and demand EU put itself in the firing line?
We supposed to pretend Putin thought of this shit last month or something? Ukraine joining NATO would somehow mean NATO invades Russia or some silly ass shit?
I'll go on to add the whataboutism and comparisons between Russia and the West is insane.
Have any of you lived in a dirt poor country full of corruption? Or seen government officials drag family members in the dead of the night, only to never return? Or have you funds confiscated because the government said so? That is what Putin's Russia is.
Perspective is lacking, the West has it too fucking good. Is it perfect? Fuck no, but perfect is unattainable in societies. Be real.
lol @ Russia joining NATO... Only to veto everything and cripple the organization from within.
For additional reading, a thread:
By Frustrated_me Go To Post10/10 postthis is not whataboutism ffs lol
I'll go on to add the whataboutism and comparisons between Russia and the West is insane.
Have any of you lived in a dirt poor country full of corruption? Or seen government officials drag family members in the dead of the night, only to never return? Or have you funds confiscated because the government said so?
Perspective is lacking, the West has it too fucking good. Is it perfect? Fuck no, but perfect is unattainable in societies. Be real.
russia can be on some shit, and they can also be antagonized while ukraine gets left holding the L. its not mutually exclusive i promise
just a few years back people were surprised the kurds got left to get run over. there might be a theme to notice if you give a fuck ijs
By Frustrated_me Go To Postlol @ Russia joining NATO… Only to veto everything and cripple the organization from within......this can't be clearing multiple heads omg
Apparently Russian forces are preparing to attack Kiyv from 3 sides tonight. It's going to be a hellish night for the Ukrainians.
The thought that innocent people are about to lose their lives just because of a madman makes me incredibly sad.
No one deserves to go to through this, fuck this world.
The thought that innocent people are about to lose their lives just because of a madman makes me incredibly sad.
No one deserves to go to through this, fuck this world.
By DY_nasty Go To Postthis is not whataboutism ffs lolI'm Kurdish.
russia can be on some shit, and they can also be antagonized while ukraine gets left holding the L. its not mutually exclusive i promise
just a few years back people were surprised the kurds got left to get run over. there might be a theme to notice if you give a fuck ijs
…..this can't be clearing multiple heads omg
The issue is we Kurds don't have much leverage (we don't really have much to offer anyone long term expect some oil) but to date have recieved a lot of support from the US and other allies, and have made out fairly well in Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran - allthings considering. That USA and allies provided support to the Kurds in Syria whose forces within the SDF included elements from the PKK and YPG, against the will of Turkey, a NATO ally, I think helped save thousands of lives. I'm not saying it's pretty for the Kurds in the region, it will never be, but I'm not gonna pretend the USA (and allies) all but abandoned them - I personally know Kurds who still recieve support in Northern Syria.
Anyways, back to Putin. I'll never accept it, that he or Russia was antagonized to the point of invading Ukraine by land, sea and air is laughable. The dude is fucking lucky to be sitting on gas, imagine Canada's GDP with a population of 38 million near equal to Russia's GDP with almost 150 million people.
I agree Ukraine is in an incredible bad place though, I feel for them.
By Frustrated_me Go To PostI'm Kurdish.All things considered, the support promised is not the support delivered. Making due and doing your best while the people cheering you on get further and further away as they quickly forget who exactly has skin in the game should never be the common theme. And it is. What I'm saying is not egregious at all.
The issue is we Kurds don't have much leverage (we don't really have much to offer anyone long term expect some oil) but to date have recieved a lot of support from the US and other allies, and have made out fairly well in Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran - allthings considering. That USA and allies provided support to the Kurds in Syria whose forces within the SDF included elements from the PKK and YPG, against the will of Turkey, a NATO ally, I think helped save thousands of lives. I'm not saying it's pretty for the Kurds in the region, it will never be, but I'm not gonna pretend the USA (and allies) all but abandoned them - I personally know Kurds who still recieve support in Northern Syria.
Groups who consider themselves allies, should be treated better. Please don't act like I'm crazy for saying that. And if/when things are escalated, its never the ones who contributed to that carrying the weight at the end.
By DY_nasty Go To Postwho is asking you to call Putin anything. If it wasn't him, it'd be the next guy. Pac made a joke and got the response back in turn. Its no one's fault it went over your head when you're hopping up and down for the chance to argue something at pundit brain levels
if you don't want to take a second to consider that a military alliance approaching your borders would create tension, then cool. Its ignoring fact, but cool. No one is asking you to cry one out for Russia tho 😂
If you can't or won't grasp that Ukraine/NATO is the start of the current problem set then that's just plugging ears. FSF literally has an article from 1997 calling this shit. Despite what is trending on twitter, history did at one point happen.
Lol sure Dy, show me the ways, should I say Thy, for I bow down to such god given talent bestowed upon he who sees beyond my mortal ways. Give me a break with the petty personal insults will you? My pundit brain can’t take the courtesy.
Ukraine’s democratically elected governments having an objective of joining NATO is just that. Putting this on NATO, when it’s Ukraine who wanted to secure its future borders from the threat of Russia is some head spinning take. Did Putin write this shit? So basically nothing bad would happen if only Russia got their way. Ok, I guess that’s something that needed to be said 👍
Why were a military alliance’s troops approaching Russia’s borders all this time? Instigation? Invasion? Struggling to come up with an answer with my pundit brain. It was certainly creating tension, that’s for sure.
By DY_nasty Go To PostAll things considered, the support promised is not the support delivered. Making due and doing your best while the people cheering you on get further and further away as they quickly forget who exactly has skin in the game should never be the common theme. And it is. What I'm saying is not egregious at all.Better have had whatever support Kurds got than not, promises aside.
Groups who consider themselves allies, should be treated better. Please don't act like I'm crazy for saying that. And if/when things are escalated, its never the ones who contributed to that carrying the weight at the end.
I remember the battle of Kobane well, just imagine there was no support at all, none whatsoever, it would have been game over.
I don't think you're crazy but my positon on Russia and Putin (and similar dictators like Erdogan and Turkey, or Xi and China) isn't changing. I'm not giving them the benefit of having a position on this war - this is all their doing.
By cRrusheR Go To PostLol sure Dy, show me the ways, should I say Thy, for I bow down to such god given talent bestowed upon he who sees beyond my mortal ways. Give me a break with the petty personal insults will you? My pundit brain can’t take the courtesy.you are literally repeating the shortest possible, most reductive framing of the events leading up to this situation
Ukraine’s democratically elected governments having an objective of joining NATO is just that. Putting this on NATO, when it’s Ukraine who wanted to secure its future borders from the threat of Russia is some head spinning take. Did Putin write this shit? So basically nothing bad would happen if only Russia got their way. Ok, I guess that’s something that needed to be said 👍
Why were a military alliance’s troops approaching Russia’s borders all this time? Instigation? Invasion? Struggling to come up with an answer with my pundit brain. It was certainly creating tension, that’s for sure.
Really not, and considering just a few posts above you were dropping a link to an article you couldn’t have possible read past the headline while making historical assumptions based on it, I’m feeling very big picture in comparison.
By cRrusheR Go To PostReally not, and considering just a few posts above you were dropping a link to an article you couldn’t have possible read past the headline while making historical assumptions based on it, I’m feeling very big picture in comparison.and you still not understanding why that's a tongue in cheek response to an equally tongue in cheek post is why im like this is another example of you dragging a discussion down to the most base levels possible then trying to 'win' on experience lmao. this is not a gotcha moment guy
even down to someone coming in late and thinking you must know what you're talking about when you're winging it.
go ahead. hop in fr now. why does poland factor into this as well and why do people keep bringing up turkey?
Y'all should really take this to PMs or just stop with the nonsense. Absolutely bizarre sequence of posts.
By Frustrated_me Go To PostBetter have had whatever support Kurds got than not, promises aside.How many do times do I need to say multiple things can be true? This is irritating.
I remember the battle of Kobane well, just imagine there was no support at all, none whatsoever, it would have been game over.
I don't think you're crazy but my positon on Russia and Putin (and similar dictators like Erdogan and Turkey, or Xi and China) isn't changing. I'm not giving them the benefit of having a position on this war - this is all their doing.
No one is giving a pass to any of these leaders. Including the ones who helped create a volatile situation for those noted aggressors to exploit. Putin am bad. Duh. Obviously. But at what point did the other countries decide that maybe their support for Ukraine was going to push this into something leading to a massive loss of life? Because if we're not talking politics and just being cheerleaders then I'll shut up.
Dy, what you are saying is nonsense. NATO was never going to attack Russia out of nothing for the same reason they aren't attacking Russia right now, fear of nukes.
Russia trying to invade Ukraine is only going to fortify NATO presence around the borders and pushing countries that were on the fence to join NATO.
Is an idiotic move by a madman who wants a long lasting legacy but instead of improving his legacy, he is destroying.
You have protests in Russia like we haven't seen in ages, where people are going to the streets even when they know they most likely will be arrested and the number of protests aren't shrinking but rising.
Russia trying to invade Ukraine is only going to fortify NATO presence around the borders and pushing countries that were on the fence to join NATO.
Is an idiotic move by a madman who wants a long lasting legacy but instead of improving his legacy, he is destroying.
You have protests in Russia like we haven't seen in ages, where people are going to the streets even when they know they most likely will be arrested and the number of protests aren't shrinking but rising.