how stupid or how bad do your systems have to be to mistake a 737 for a (likely stealth) US warplane?
Iran in that space where I really can't tell what their deal is at times. They can be really cynically smart like how they basically just shot missiles at empty buildings with American flags on them to appear internally like they ate doing shit but still avoid the smoke. But then they go and do some other blatantly dumb shit, only the question becomes deliberate or no?
The Iranian government is hilariously bad. They've killed something like 1700 of their own people in the past month.
That's the thing though they know how to keep in power and avoid our smoke in spite of shit. Not completely inept bit also fucked up all at once.
By diehard Go To Posthow stupid or how bad do your systems have to be to mistake a 737 for a (likely stealth) US warplane?
That's what happens when you get fleeced by Russian military contractors who sell you the "the newest shit on the market".
Iran's operating on 1970s tech.
A lot of countries radar system works with old tech. Not to mention for some there's a barrior between various govt. dept.
The MH370 incident forced them to upgrade / changed some things around to help better communication between military and civil aviation dept.
The MH370 incident forced them to upgrade / changed some things around to help better communication between military and civil aviation dept.
All Iran had to do was let airliners know ahead of time to clear out. Or they could've grounded everyone. I doubt anything significant and immediately threatening would've even been at that altitude too. Even if you want to get into how their air defenses are patchwork in many contexts, you've still got basic wartime considerations to account for - and they were the ones who put on the big boy ballistic missile pants in the first place. I'm lost and without words on how many things must've gone wrong to fuck up like that.
sooooo the story that Iran is going with is that dude thought he was looking at a cruise missile
lol fuck outta here
lol fuck outta here
By DY_nasty Go To Postsooooo the story that Iran is going with is that dude thought he was looking at a cruise missile
lol fuck outta here
I'm saying. Lol
Crazy how fast they pissed away all of that good will. They actually managed to give Trump's loud ass some cover.
RIP to those on the flight.
By DY_nasty Go To Postsooooo the story that Iran is going with is that dude thought he was looking at a cruise missile
lol fuck outta here
i mean, what's the alternative? someone clearly panicked and fired, it was human error
By Dark PhaZe Go To Posti mean, what's the alternative? someone clearly panicked and fired, it was human errorThat's worse than the Hawaii fake nuke stuff. That's a series of fuck ups from training to chain of command to strategic planning.
That kind of excuse worked back in WW2 London where some lone kid manning an anti aircraft gun had to make a judgement call in contested skies where everything flies at roughly the same altitude and civilian air considerations don't exist. Now? lol.
You don't go from shooting down top class drones on a random day ending in Y to mistaking a civilian airliner for a cruise missile while your entire standing army is on alert. Doesn't add up.
By DY_nasty Go To PostThat's worse than the Hawaii fake nuke stuff. That's a series of fuck ups from training to chain of command to strategic planning.
That kind of excuse worked back in WW2 London where some lone kid manning an anti aircraft gun had to make a judgement call in contested skies where everything flies at roughly the same altitude and civilian air considerations don't exist. Now? lol.
You don't go from shooting down top class drones on a random day ending in Y to mistaking a civilian airliner for a cruise missile while your entire standing army is on alert. Doesn't add up.
Someone had to know what they were doing.
A tragedy it happened regardless.
it's not like they're ever going to say anything different, but this is only going to happen more and more
If they can't coordinate with fucking planes flying in and out they have no business even launching anything.
the RCS of a 737 is about 200 times that of a cruise missile
cruise missles also fly much faster and much lower than that plane when it was shot
also it was flying away from a civilian airport
cruise missles also fly much faster and much lower than that plane when it was shot
also it was flying away from a civilian airport
By HasphatsAnts Go To Post
it's not like they're ever going to say anything different, but this is only going to happen more and more
LOL So now someone wants to play the "Trump scared me" card in defense of this or something?
This shit is inexcusable. Iran's government is run by muppets. As someone had already mentioned, hundreds and hundreds of Iranians have been killed by their OWN government 1 month alone. The number apparently eclipses 1000.
By DY_nasty Go To PostI'm saying that entire story being accepted is bullshit too.it is unfortunately, possible.
By Fenderputty Go To PostIran ain’t IraqHow do you feel about this post now? America would walk these fools.
By Lunatic Go To PostHow do you feel about this post now? America would walk these fools.
Been in Iraq for (checks notes) 17 years
By Flutter Go To Postit is unfortunately, possible.Possible and likely aren't the same thing. Like diehard said as well - even just glancing at the basic information provided it doesn't make sense to assume a cruise missile is moving along the same lane as civilian airliners (among numerous other factors). Or that an air defense network would have the same
I've seen more convincing hunting accident stories.
By Pac-12 Go To PostBeen in Iraq for (checks notes) 17 yearsIraq's standing army lasted not even 30 days though. Counterinsurgency and sustainment is not the wave or what our (or any military) is designed to do.
Yeah, but it's like, beat the Iranian army, cool. What about whatever the fuck comes next. Do we hang the banner (GWB) or finish the fight (John 117).
By Pac-12 Go To PostBeen in Iraq for (checks notes) 17 yearsAmerica crippled Iraq in three days. The government was done by then so it was just a matter of time. Winning the "hearts and minds" is another thing.
By Pac-12 Go To PostYeah, but it's like, beat the Iranian army, cool. What about whatever the fuck comes next. Do we hang the banner (GWB) or finish the fight (John 117).Their internal disposition is nothing like Iraq so its not like it'd ever come to that no matter the scenario. Their current government is on shaky ground with or without the threat of military action looming overhead too... With the enforcer-in-chief dead, I don't even know if they're able to continue properly and effectively oppressing their own people anymore either.
By DY_nasty Go To PostPossible and likely aren't the same thing. Like diehard said as well - even just glancing at the basic information provided it doesn't make sense to assume a cruise missile is moving along the same lane as civilian airliners (among numerous other factors). Or that an air defense network would have the sameyou're thinking too much over this. It's more likely that this was what happened than anything else especially considering that a certain president should have made that situation more tense than it should have been.groupguy highlighting potential targets and coordinating fires.
I've seen more convincing hunting accident stories.
Iraq's standing army lasted not even 30 days though. Counterinsurgency and sustainment is not the wave or what our (or any military) is designed to do.
Of course, I'll wait until we get further information, but I wont be surprised if the mistake is due to the type of radar some military uses and of course, red tape that caused communication between civilian and military aviation slow or non existent.
Imagine shooting down a commercial airliner taking off from your own capital and on top of that thinking it's a cruise missile.
To be honest every commercial aircraft should have been grounded which is standard procedure.
To be honest every commercial aircraft should have been grounded which is standard procedure.
By Flutter Go To Postyou're thinking too much over this. It's more likely that this was what happened than anything else especially considering that a certain president should have made that situation more tense than it should have been.That's not "thinking too much" lol. That's applying what you know to what may or may not be bullshit. A missile and a 737 have nothing in common other than the fact that they're in the air.
Of course, I'll wait until we get further information, but I wont be surprised if the mistake is due to the type of radar some military uses and of course, red tape that caused communication between civilian and military aviation slow or non existent.
There's tons of problems with Iran's entire posture for their attack. They didn't clear out diplomats. They didn't issue public warnings to prepare for what was clearly expected retaliation. They didn't ground or at the very least flag civilian traffic. Etc
It'd be different if this was a quick response to a country invading their borders, but it wasn't. It was them putting on the big boy ballistic missile pants before anyone else as a show of force in conventional warfare. They're not a failed state with guerillas shooting from the hip. They're a highly trained and modern military operating within their own airspace. How do you not know whats in your own airspace? Next to your own airports? Its funny because you don't even have to worry about it since there's an existing log.
And its not a guy in a control center glued to a screen with no oversight but the user's manual and a commanding officer x miles or phone calls away. I'm not sure what people think air defense is but it ain't that. Its not even a conspiracy to say that the story doesn't make sense.
The only thing I agree with DY is the second paragraph.
and yes, there's nothing in common between a missile and a 737, with the naked eye. What we need to know is what type of radar was used that caused this mess. I'll probably try and extract some info from someone tomorrow about it.
and yes, there's nothing in common between a missile and a 737, with the naked eye. What we need to know is what type of radar was used that caused this mess. I'll probably try and extract some info from someone tomorrow about it.
they have more in common to the naked eye than to literally any modern radar system but okay. naked eye can't tell you altitude, heading, size, coordinate and track with other linked hubs like a (civilian airport) in real-time...
this is basic stuff. an outbound, accelerating, squaking civilian aircraft with an internationally recognized "welcome to radar 101" sized cross section in a regularly traveled flight path from a major airport compared to a inbound, significantly smaller, faster, decelerating, much lower object that isn't screaming how civilian it is. and how someone in that area had the gall to assume that a missile had somehow got past every other station between them and the border?
its beyond belief. there's some complicated shit in every field but you really don't need to be an expert to see that if that mistake was anything close to statistically rare then the skies would be painted with blood. shit, india doesn't even know to close the hatch on their submarine but they manage to have a border skirmish with pakistan every other week without blasting people.
the "10 seconds" is some shit pulled square out of someone's ass too. super dramatic
this is basic stuff. an outbound, accelerating, squaking civilian aircraft with an internationally recognized "welcome to radar 101" sized cross section in a regularly traveled flight path from a major airport compared to a inbound, significantly smaller, faster, decelerating, much lower object that isn't screaming how civilian it is. and how someone in that area had the gall to assume that a missile had somehow got past every other station between them and the border?
its beyond belief. there's some complicated shit in every field but you really don't need to be an expert to see that if that mistake was anything close to statistically rare then the skies would be painted with blood. shit, india doesn't even know to close the hatch on their submarine but they manage to have a border skirmish with pakistan every other week without blasting people.
the "10 seconds" is some shit pulled square out of someone's ass too. super dramatic
Dy, this might be a suprise to you, but there are countries where the military and civilian aviation dont really coordinate and track after the plane is in the air.
I know this because I had listened to someone on the MH370 team over what went wrong, on why the military didn't track the plane, and most importantly; on some radar systems there's no difference between an object entering its coverage under than a blip. That and the MH17 investigation over how they accidentally shot a civilian plane down.
When I'm saying you're thinking too much about this I'm serious; you're expecting someone under pressure, to act perfectly in a situation where your country has made paranoia even worse by your dumbass president threatening to attack. This isn't a normal situation. Fuck ups happen. And I dont know why you want to believe on something else, because what reason would they have to shoot down a civilian aircraft?
It's a mistake. A costly, grievious one.
I know this because I had listened to someone on the MH370 team over what went wrong, on why the military didn't track the plane, and most importantly; on some radar systems there's no difference between an object entering its coverage under than a blip. That and the MH17 investigation over how they accidentally shot a civilian plane down.
When I'm saying you're thinking too much about this I'm serious; you're expecting someone under pressure, to act perfectly in a situation where your country has made paranoia even worse by your dumbass president threatening to attack. This isn't a normal situation. Fuck ups happen. And I dont know why you want to believe on something else, because what reason would they have to shoot down a civilian aircraft?
It's a mistake. A costly, grievious one.
I posted quite a few times that it was most probably a terrible mistake so don't be daft.
You cannot ignore his threats into this equation though.
You cannot ignore his threats into this equation though.
?
mh370 went down in the ocean - it wasn't shot down next to an international airport. the military never had to care about it. mh17 was deliberate. the only questions about that are about the level of russian involvement with the separatists at the time. also, that's an isolated mobile air defense setup that did that. not a network.
blip is not a word for a surface to air missile system. who is telling you these things. long range coverage would look nothing like a targeting system.
there are countries with far more antiquated equipment in constant conflict with regularly contested airspace that don't make this sort of mistake due to convenient single points of failure. if Iran said they were shooting at a meteor it would actually have made more sense. these fuck ups literally do not happen over your own airspace.
mh370 went down in the ocean - it wasn't shot down next to an international airport. the military never had to care about it. mh17 was deliberate. the only questions about that are about the level of russian involvement with the separatists at the time. also, that's an isolated mobile air defense setup that did that. not a network.
blip is not a word for a surface to air missile system. who is telling you these things. long range coverage would look nothing like a targeting system.
there are countries with far more antiquated equipment in constant conflict with regularly contested airspace that don't make this sort of mistake due to convenient single points of failure. if Iran said they were shooting at a meteor it would actually have made more sense. these fuck ups literally do not happen over your own airspace.
I was talking the span of on when MH370 suddenly went missing, and why the military didn't track it down. in that span, and why it was harder as time went by. Think it was in the span of minutes for that.
and maybe blip is not the right word.
I'll just ask again later this monday.
and maybe blip is not the right word.
I'll just ask again later this monday.
If Iran had had the stones to put a more effective response in, Trump might be getting new articles of impeachment installed lol.
The stuff he did to get around congress on the attack was pretty much whatever. Heat would be 10x as bad if Iran hadn't caved instantly.
The stuff he did to get around congress on the attack was pretty much whatever. Heat would be 10x as bad if Iran hadn't caved instantly.
