Politics | 2014-15

By reilo Go To PostDoom and gloom?

Bernie fans advocating "accerlationism" as a means to affect liberal change. Basically let the world burn as quickly as possible under right / capitalist wing rule so we all see the light. They were all hoping he entered and sucked up Clinton's votes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism

Ideally Bernie fits my views better than Clinton, but to these people a pragmatic approach to politics is basically giving in to the system. Supporting the eventual dem that makes it out of the primaries isn't a defeatist attitude. Taking your cookie and going home while the right continues to try and strip our social safety nets, minority voting etc etc is the more defeatist approach IMO.

Idealism is great for theoretical discussion, but never works in a pragmatic world, no matter how cruel the world is. Progress is slow and incremental, but it's still progress (for the most part).

By reilo Go To PostIdealism is great for theoretical discussion, but never works in a pragmatic world, no matter how cruel the world is. Progress is slow and incremental, but it's still progress (for the most part).

Right. This would be true even if Bernie is elected too. He faces the same congressional road blocks

Yea, letting the right control the WH for even 6 months is dangerous as shit, let alone for 4 or 8 years.


Also, so apparently Oregon has no sales tax AND won't let you pump your own gas. I walked out of my car and some dude opened my gas tank and started asking me how much I wanted to pay. I was taken aback for a second and thought he was homeless and wanted money to help me. Such a weird weird feeling.

But I guess wth gas prices so low + extra jobs, and the extra convenience, its not that bad. I can imagine libertarians losing their shit over "nanny state" accusations. How has this NOT been modernized yet?

lol yep. Oregon is so weird with some stuff.

But waiting for someone to pump your gas sucks. I would need to see some statistics to make an accurate opinion of the jobs it creates are actually good jobs.

Yeah, I went to Portland and that tripped me out. Wound up paying dude $20 to just chill. Fuck Oregon's rules except for legalized but not decriminalized weed.

Hillary coming out of the BENGHAZI hearing looking better than she went in. Great job GOP. Fantastic. Even some Bernie supporters on GAF are begrudgingly saying this lol.

By Fenderputty Go To PostThe GAF thread in the OT on this was a fucking train wreck. Holy shit.

Maybe I missed it?

Edit: ugh! This placement of landing in threads for this board is throwing me off terribly. :'(

Roskam ripped a piece of paper in two in a theatrical gesture meant to support his claim that requests for security from U.S. Ambassador to Libya Chris Stevens before the attacks on September 11, 2012, were denied.

"You laid this on Chris Stevens, didn't you? They didn't get through to you. They didn't get through to your inner circle," Roskam charged.

LOL

By Sanjuro Go To PostEdit: ugh! This placement of landing in threads for this board is throwing me off terribly. :'(

?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/11/21/no-stand-down-order-or-military-missteps-in-benghazi-attack-gop-controlled/

The report alleges no wrongdoing by Obama administration appointees.

it finds no intent to mislead the American public.

This has been kangaroo court theater for over a year now. It's all just based on people not reading the report and still believing the 2 years of Fox News programming.

They wasted $5mil of taxpayer money on this bullshit trying to manufacturer a scandal.

By reilo Go To Post?

I hit the refresh looking button, but it doesn't bring me to the end of the thread. It's usually some random spot.

By Sanjuro Go To PostI hit the refresh looking button, but it doesn't bring me to the end of the thread. It's usually some random spot.

That's odd. What browser?

By reilo Go To PostThat's odd. What browser?

I think both desktop and mobile do it? It's harder to notice on mobile (Chrome) more, so when I post it's an immediate D'OH.

I figured it might be trying to place me where I last viewed instead of the last post made?

By Sanjuro Go To PostI figured it might be trying to place me where I last viewed instead of the last post made?

Yes, that's what it does.

Yea, the site keeps track of the last post you read within the past three days and puts you to that spot. If the last post happens to be the last post of the page then that's where it'll take you.

stolen seamlessly from poligaf:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/philadelphia-76ers-throw-shade-presidential-candidate-john-kasich/story?id=34679991

Riddle me this for a sec.

I wonder what the turnout and the outcome would be for a 4-way race with 2 rounds:
Trump
Rubio
Clinton
Sanders

That would make for a very balanced split don't you think? I sorta feel like the US has never been so close to being split 25% four ways.

The US isn't split 25% for ways. No way. Clinton is head and shoulders ahead of the pack by every metric.

Sure. I guess I'm thinking within a system where all 4 would have similar exposure during a proper campaign.
Part of my point is a lot of Hilton supporters exist because of the pressure of the "useful vote".

By Gabyskra Go To PostSure. I guess I'm thinking within a system where all 4 would have similar exposure during a proper campaign.
Part of my point is a lot of Hilton supporters exist because of the pressure of the "useful vote".

Nah, Hillary's approval ratings are incredibly high among most Democrats. She's far too pro-war, but so is America. She would slaughter all in that election.

Are you sure you get the point of this hypothetical of a 2 rounds system? I don't imagine Trump going under 25, Rubio under 20, Sanders under 17... She might get her 30%, but you obviously have a trend in US politics where people are willing to vote for hardliners. This is new. You're missing the point, it's not about who would lead or what politics are good. It's an observation.

After Clinton gets elected what do you think will happen?
- wars
- increasing inequality
- she'll get the TPP going against her promises, etc
->
The racists could get stronger, and so could Leftists. All establishment politicians can hope for is that their own maneuvers reinforce abstention, as it has in the past. But the popularity of Sanders might not be just a one-time exception (if they do turn his recognition into a movement of many faces). And i certainly don't think Trump is Perot v2, the Republican's electorate is obviously turning ultra-nationalist.

Beyond the observation, here is my way of answering reilo who says "progress is slow but it is progress anyway". Well, no. We live in a time of regression. Working-class wages recede, we haven't lived a day of peace on this planet since 1938, immigration repression is getting worse... Voting for Clinton won't stop the trend, it will soften it at best, but what's needed is not just to vote right for progress to pick itself back up.

There's nothing pragmatic about enthusiasm for establishment Democrats if you feel empathy for people on the other side of war operations and the poors of America.

Just yesterday, 5 Americans made 10 billion dollars. Do you realize the insanity?

Your post has nothing to do with the prior line of discussion:

You: "Many people are voting only for Hillary because they think she has a better chance in the general."
Me: "No, Democrat voters really like Hillary."
You: "Hillary won't stem the tide of decline for America!"

???

By IWMTB19 Go To PostYour post has nothing to do with the prior line of discussion:

You: "Many people are voting only for Hillary because they think she has a better chance in the general."
Me: "No, Democrat voters really like Hillary."
You: "Hillary won't stem the tide of decline for America!"

???

My point was that Clinton seems set to get 55% of the popular vote in november '16 which hides more complex political sympathies in today's US. Another electoral system with the same leaders would already paint a different picture, and would probably temper with how easy it is for her to dominate the airwaves (financial backers, entertainment industry backers, etc). She'd lose a significant %age. You're focusing on who is winning. That's not what I care about at this stage. I care about tendencies and how political sympathies form over time. The two-party system is not going to last until the end of times, you need to look beyond the forms of today and see what social forces are at play already. American parties had a complex history in the early 19th century. I'm not saying this is changing after this coming election (nor the one after), but there's an absolute need to see what the ultra-nationalists who are loving Trump are going to do. With my hypothetical, I'm saying/showing they could seem stronger than the pseudo-moderates who have been pandering to them (Rubio might get the nomination, but if both were running anyway, do you think Trump does worse than him? I'm not sure). As for the Democrats, obviously a really considerable number won't be happy about Clinton. Once Clinton is elected, do you think these tendencies are reversed because she's just that good? I don't. She's yet another corporate shill who can have her own Vietnam war and won't help working people much.

I don't love Hillary and you obviously don't like her, but she has a +60 approval rating among Democrats. She's pretty beloved in general Democratic circles, you're in too many echo-chambers.

I still think HRC gets 40-45% in a 4-person runoff like that.

By IWMTB19 Go To PostI don't love Hillary and you obviously don't like her, but she has a +60 approval rating among Democrats. She's pretty beloved in general Democratic circles, you're in too many echo-chambers.

She's got it locked up imo... but she had it locked up in 2008 too

Also, Jeb! running to his parents for help, with his tail between his legs, while his campaign disintegrates is fun. He is visibly melting down and can't handle Trump at all, lol.

By IWMTB19 Go To PostAlso, Jeb! running to his parents for help, with his tail between his legs, while his campaign disintegrates is fun. He is visibly melting down and can't handle Trump at all, lol.

Jeb really thought it was going to be easy until primaries.

I'm not mad. Paul Ryan will save America in 2020 anyways.

By DY_nasty Go To PostShe's got it locked up imo… but she had it locked up in 2008 too

Obama was a Reagan/JFK Type candidate. Not even Hillary could have stopped that. Bernie, although providing a useful service by getting people comfortable with democratic socialism and pushing Hillary to the left, wants to add 18 trillion to the debt in short order, he has no chance in hell of winning an election.

By Vahagn Go To PostObama was a Reagan/JFK Type candidate. Not even Hillary could have stopped that. Bernie, although providing a useful service by getting people comfortable with democratic socialism and pushing Hillary to the left, wants to add 18 trillion to the debt in short order, he has no chance in hell of winning an election.

Can't say I disagree. I think Hillary could've won if she stomped out Barack before he went SSJ but such is life.

I'm weirded out that I have to support Trump as he's better than Carson and Jeb by miles. Its fucked up that he's a real thing. Clinton v Trump is reality TV.

By DY_nasty Go To PostJeb really thought it was going to be easy until primaries.

I'm not mad. Paul Ryan will save America in 2020 anyways.

Paul Ryan getting painted by some other pubs as a Trojan Horse for the LGBT lobby.

There is no end to the tragedy (comedy depending on your perspective) that is the GOP.

By db Go To PostPaul Ryan getting painted by some other pubs as a Trojan Horse for the LGBT lobby.

There is no end to the tragedy (comedy depending on your perspective) that is the GOP.

If there's a republican candidate that is positioning himself outside of the typical rhetoric... its him

still ain't saying much, but i'm pretty disenfranchised with both parties anyway

Paul Ryan's budgetary ideas are legit trash fanboy drivel.

No, Jeb all the way. The very possibility that Donald Trump may actually try to forcibly deport 11 million people is the scariest fucking proposition in at least a century.

Trump has Jeb by his cojones though. If Trump can devastate Jeb and make him look unelectable to the GOP, what would someone like HRC do in the generals? It would be a disaster.

If you're a woman or gay pretty much all of the GOP noms are a scary proposition.

By db Go To PostIf you're a woman or gay pretty much all of the GOP noms are a scary proposition.

eventually they'll move away from the crazies

one day

By reilo Go To PostTrump has Jeb by his cojones though. If Trump can devastate Jeb and make him look unelectable to the GOP, what would someone like HRC do in the generals? It would be a disaster.

legit trash all around

By Vahagn Go To Postwants to add 18 trillion to the debt in short order, he has no chance in hell of winning an election.

That right there shows how every-day propaganda works in the United States.

You don't even get the Wall Street Journal story right, which itself didn't get the Gerald Friedman study right.

He's the scientist the WSJ backed its argument on. Friedman did not mention the debt. He talked about spending, regarding single payer universal health care. And his argument is that it would save the US money and help the economy overall, not worsen the debt.

Here is his rebuttal to the WSJ piece:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerald-friedman/the-wall-street-journal-k_b_8143062.html

The WSJ turned "saving 5T$" into "spending 15T$". You turn "spending 15T$" into "adding 15T$ to the debt". This is some Orwellian shit right there. For all the pragmatism and realism you hear about here, paradoxically having zero care for the truth seems to not be a problem. The WSJ knew what it was doing when it deliberately lied. I hope you don't.

I did a bit of rhetorical math relating to capitalism and inequalities, and why there is nothing reasonable about so-called pragmatists who will not challenge the dictatorship of capitalists (but accept their donations).

You might have heard Jeff Bezos made 5 billion dollars this past friday alone.

A warehouse worker of his (25k/y) would have to work for 200 millenia in order to earn what Bezos got in 24 hours. That is equivalent to 40 times the entirety of human history.

Wealth is really all about power, not vague notions of hard work.

By Gabyskra Go To PostI did a bit of rhetorical math relating to capitalism and inequalities, and why there is nothing reasonable about so-called pragmatists who will not challenge the dictatorship of capitalists.

You might have heard Jeff Bezos made 5 billion dollars this past friday alone.

A warehouse worker of his (25k/y) would have to work for 200 millenia in order to earn what Bezos got in 24 hours. That is equivalent to 40 times the entirety of human history.

Wealth is really all about power, not vague notions of hard work.

America was founded on vague notions of hard work breh

By DY_nasty Go To PostAmerica was founded on vague notions of hard work breh

I know, I'm saying the American dream of meritocracy is a lie.

Ben Carson thinks that God is Dead was a documentary and that the Marine Todd meme is true, jesus fucking christ.

He's also against abortion options for rape victims, but that's to be expected from him.

Gaby doesn't understand how democracy works. A black guy got elected, 50% of the country lost their collective minds, they voted in their gerrymandered reps, and brought all of government to a grinding halt.

If you think Sanders has a chance in hell of achieving any of his goals you're no different than the guys who think that if you pray hard enough and vote to repeal obamacare 50 times that it will magically happen.

Disenchanted hardcore ideologues who were disappointed that Obama didnt fart flowers and snap his fingers to bring about lasting world peace and then didn't show up to vote in 2010 and 2014 were partly responsible for bringing on this mess in the first place.

Democracy is non violent war. You win elections and you get no credit for being ideologically pure and taking your ball and going home just because 80% of the country doesn't want your candidate.

Yeah, that's the kind of shit Blair used to say to Labour in the war days and now he's apologizing about it. It's also the line of thinking Johnson opposed Martin Luther King. Or Lincoln to abolitionists when he wasn't yet willing to defend the 13th amendment. But progress is made by people who fight, not those who serve as buffer when progress is facing reactionaries.

Thank you for the lesson in platitudes about politics being a struggle and compromises being anavoidable, I'll be sure to think about it when I go home with my ball.

By reilo Go To PostPaul Ryan's budgetary ideas are legit trash fanboy drivel.

.

By IWMTB19 Go To PostBen Carson thinks that God is Dead was a documentary and that the Marine Todd meme is true, jesus fucking christ.

He's also against abortion options for rape victims, but that's to be expected from him.

Women are just baby vessels to his brood, not persons in their own right. It is even more sad coming from a surgeon since no one person can be forced to give up their organs to any other person, even dead persons. Corpses have more bodily autonomy than women, think about that.

Ben Carson is cooning hard as hell but whatever... he knows he can't win shit. He's making a fortune right now tapdancing.

Another GOP debate?