By blackace Go To PostI didn't misinterpret anything… Williams is going to log major mins he is, right now, the starter on paper and shouldnt fall below the 8th player…because there are 14 players better than him on the Knicks…
Porzi might not see much time this so why would you be against a great fit in Bargs?
if you don't want to join the conversation it's not mandatory
Phil said he wants Derek to give Porzi 20 min a night early in the season and more as the season progresses. He's not sitting out a year. Phil isn't Hinkie.
Amundson/Kyle/Porzi/Melo/Lance Thomas are all more viable options at the 4 than Derrick Williams.
So even if YOU think he'll play major minutes, one things clear - IIIIIIIIII don't think he will and I'm not on the D Williams hype train so I'm absolutely not "riding for D Williams now"
So again, Derrick Williams is a much bigger piece of the puzzle in your eyes than he is in mine.
And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he does play 20-25 min a game like u suggest. Still doesn't make me a supporter of his or think he's one of the 3 best bigs on the team
to put it in perspective Phil went out and made D.Williams the 5th highest paid player on the team.
D.Williams + RoLo contacts = Marc Gasol
D.Williams + RoLo contacts = Marc Gasol
By blackace Go To Postwe have all laughed at Dy about his Hornets winning 49Exactly wtf lol
Derrick Williams is going for the nba record for most bricked dunks in a career. He's gonna get his run, trust me.
By Vahagn Go To PostSo Pippen is a top 10 all time player now? Or is it Pau Gasol. I'm confused.Yeah, I think people are throwing around that term a bit too liberally...
By Sharp Go To PostYeah, I think people are throwing around that term a bit too liberally…Pippen a top 50 player of all time and a top player from his era..
By blackace Go To PostPippen a top 50 player of all time and a top player from his era..Absolutely.
Top 10 might be stretching it a little bit.
By diehard Go To Posti cant believe Derrick Williams is a topic of discussion
like really
Lou Amundson being a defensive stopper is my favorite topic. Or maybe that now Vahagn is down to mentioning Lance Thomas.
The idea that Phil Jackson is more long-term oriented is silly.
Dealing Chandler for Calderon who had a longer contract, and dumping Shumpert, does not correspond to that description. It was a panicked firesale. Jackson believed in Dalembert. Jackson believed in Bargnani. He never wanted to tank last year. To pretend otherwise is revisionism. Dealing Tim Hardaway for Jerian Grant is trading youth for youth. If Grant turns out to be Nolan Smith 2.0, it won't be too great.
Also, if tanking is the right course of action, deal Melo now while he still has value. Don't get stuck in the "almost in the playoffs" zone because all future picks will suck.
For a good part of the 2000s, the Knicks were future oriented with a stupid youth movement. The Bargnani deal was dumb (Grunwald). The Curry deal was dumb (Thomas, and it turned out even dumber following a bunch crazy events such as Wilkens resigning, turning a non-lottery pick into... Aldridge and Noah). But Walsh did much better.
By Gabyskra Go To PostLou Amundson being a defensive stopper is my favorite topic. Or maybe that now Vahagn is down to mentioning Lance Thomas.they can't tank next season... because Denver can swap picks with them...
The idea that Phil Jackson is more long-term oriented is silly.
Dealing Chandler for Calderon who had a longer contract, and dumping Shumpert, does not correspond to that description. It was a panicked firesale. Jackson believed in Dalembert. Jackson believed in Bargnani. He never wanted to tank last year. To pretend otherwise is revisionism. Dealing Tim Hardaway for Jerian Grant is trading youth for youth. If Grant turns out to be Nolan Smith 2.0, it won't be too great.
Also, if tanking is the right course of action, deal Melo now while he still has value. Don't get stuck in the "almost in the playoffs" zone because all future picks will suck.
For a good part of the 2000s, the Knicks were future oriented with a stupid youth movement. The Bargnani deal was dumb (Grunwald). The Curry deal was dumb (Thomas, and it turned out even dumber following a bunch crazy events such as Wilkens resigning, turning a non-lottery pick and decent future into… Aldridge and Noah). But Walsh did much better.
By blackace Go To Postthey can't tank next season… because Denver can swap picks with them…
They don't even have that pick, it's gone to Toronto because of Bargnani. Of course they can't tank but my point is "deal Melo while he has value" if you think he's not improvising. 3 years from now, he'll get you much less. Also, don't go around signing Afflalo and Williams for 2 years... The whole talk about "at least Jackson is not fascinated with stars" is just rationalizing why Jackson would rather pay Lopez than Gasol, or give Afflalo 8 instead of Shumpert 10... that kind of thing.
By Gabyskra Go To PostThey don't even have that pick, it's gone to Toronto because of Bargnani. Of course they can't tank but my point is "deal Melo while he has value" if you think he's not improvising. 3 years from now, he'll get you much less. Also, don't go around signing Afflalo and Williams for 2 years… The whole talk about "at least Jackson is not fascinated with stars" is just rationalizing why Jackson would rather pay Lopez than Gasol, or give Afflalo 8 instead of Shumpert 10… that kind of thing.
Wait, What? Like you really need to catch up to current events before you post. That or you live in Bizarro world where up is down and right is left.... idk at this point.
Phil never had the choice to sign Gasol. Saying "oh RoLo and D Will = Gasol" is disingenuous because it only makes sense if they were on the books and keeping the knicks from getting Gasol who would have wanted to play for NY. That's not what happened at all.
Gasol chose staying in Memphis over everything. He didn't even meet with other teams. You could say he chose "RoLo and D Will = D Jordan" but look at the fuckery the mavs went through so that would of been a disaster or "RoLo and D Will = LMA" but like I said before putting LMA at the 4 for 40 minutes a night like he wants stunts KP's growth (aka that youth over big names argument)
Afflalo is a better player than Shumpert.... I don't even want to go into this because it should be self apparent. You got to have an agenda blinding you to argue Afflalo at 2 for 16 is worse than Shumpert at 4 for 40. Shump is way overpaid even with the cap bump he's literally getting paid because of the Lebron Stimulus package. Lance Thomas is getting 1.5 for 1 year and he put up stats similar to Shump not playing besides Lebron, Kyrie, and Love for half a season.
Melo has a no trade clause with a trade kicker that doesn't reach full value until next FA. If he was going to allow a trade it would be starting then. Phil can't just move him \
By Zeus Ex Machina Go To PostMelo has a no trade clause with a trade kicker that doesn't reach full value until next FA. If he was going to allow a trade it would be starting then. Phil can't just move him \who gave him a ntc??
I never said Gasol wanted to come to NY, I'm referring to Jackson's words on the subject.
For the rest of the talk, we pretty much disagree on everything. Yes, there's a chance you can talk Melo into leaving, especially when himself he's complaining publicly for a short while about the front office and he realizes his career could fade into mediocrity. Yeah, if you get Aldridge, too bad for KP, that's alright of a price to pay for a top 4 big today. Yes Shumpert is a better asset than Afflalo, much much better than Lance Thomas and worth more on the market for prospective deals. You get pieces, turn them into something, not get 10 cents on the dollar. There is a market for Shumpert, is there one for Afflalo or Williams?
IMO, that conversation is impossible for a simple reason; I won't get any of the Phil defenders to recognize that last summer's deals sucked, that they were made to compete and that Jackson never expected to not make the playoffs... before cleansing the team turning JR Shump and Hardaway into the lone Jerian Grant. Not too long ago, getting Stoudemire was settling. Today, people are enthusiastic about getting a 9 and 6 center. If anything is short term, it is your memory. Is the team headed for anything but, at best, a 1st round playoffs exit for the next few years? When Jackson came in, that was the worst case scenario. We've come a long sad way.
For the rest of the talk, we pretty much disagree on everything. Yes, there's a chance you can talk Melo into leaving, especially when himself he's complaining publicly for a short while about the front office and he realizes his career could fade into mediocrity. Yeah, if you get Aldridge, too bad for KP, that's alright of a price to pay for a top 4 big today. Yes Shumpert is a better asset than Afflalo, much much better than Lance Thomas and worth more on the market for prospective deals. You get pieces, turn them into something, not get 10 cents on the dollar. There is a market for Shumpert, is there one for Afflalo or Williams?
IMO, that conversation is impossible for a simple reason; I won't get any of the Phil defenders to recognize that last summer's deals sucked, that they were made to compete and that Jackson never expected to not make the playoffs... before cleansing the team turning JR Shump and Hardaway into the lone Jerian Grant. Not too long ago, getting Stoudemire was settling. Today, people are enthusiastic about getting a 9 and 6 center. If anything is short term, it is your memory. Is the team headed for anything but, at best, a 1st round playoffs exit for the next few years? When Jackson came in, that was the worst case scenario. We've come a long sad way.
By blackace Go To Postwho gave him a ntc??
Better than letting him walk. I'll keep saying that too. Until I see proof Melo is done or falling off significantly it was the right move.
Melo walking away for nothing means all those assets given up for him were completely wasted (aka bargnani and the pick). You resign Melo to a deal you can move later and try to get a pick for him or if he stays playing like Me7o you got at least 1 star player on your team to do the heavy lifting on offense.
Its the difference between the wolves getting Wiggins for Love and the blazers getting nada for LMA. I choose the wolves 10 times out of 10.
By Zeus Ex Machina Go To PostIts the difference between the wolves getting Wiggins for Love and the blazers getting nada for LMA. I choose the wolves 10 times out of 10.but the ntc almost means you can't get a wolves like deal...
1. Is Jackson responsible for the catastrophe that was last season?
2. Did Jackson apologists pretend that was what he was going for in the 2014 offseason?
Yes and no. Saying otherwise is revisionism. The rest is rationalizing bouncing back from 14th in the East to 10th, as if that is the way to go long-term and choosing a more recent starting point than when Jackson entered office...
2. Did Jackson apologists pretend that was what he was going for in the 2014 offseason?
Yes and no. Saying otherwise is revisionism. The rest is rationalizing bouncing back from 14th in the East to 10th, as if that is the way to go long-term and choosing a more recent starting point than when Jackson entered office...
By blackace Go To Postbut the ntc almost means you can't get a wolves like deal…If they're bad enough and he wants out, they could move him. It's not impossible.
I don't think anybody is getting a deal like Love for Wiggins ever again, though. The Wolves got the top pick, the Rookie of the Year, for a dude that was leaving in a year. Value like that just doesn't happen since you're dealing from a position of weakness. It's this perfect storm of a star trade.
By blackace Go To Postbut the ntc almost means you can't get a wolves like deal…
By rodeoclown Go To PostIf they're bad enough and he wants out, they could move him. It's not impossible.
I don't think anybody is getting a deal like Love for Wiggins ever again, though. The Wolves got the top pick, the Rookie of the Year, for a dude that was leaving in a year. Value like that just doesn't happen since you're dealing from a position of weakness. It's this perfect storm of a star trade.
Still getting anything back is better than nothing at all
By Gabyskra Go To Post1. Is Jackson responsible for the catastrophe that was last season?
2. Did Jackson apologists pretend that was what he was going for in the 2014 offseason?
Yes and no. Saying otherwise is revisionism. The rest is rationalizing bouncing back from 14th in the East to 10th, as if that is the way to go long-term and choosing a more recent starting point than when Jackson entered office…
Even if Jackson wanted the playoffs as soon as it was clear that team couldn't do it he did the right thing by setting them up to tank.. Hell if that no good bastard tim Hardaway didn't hit two unnecessary game winner the knicks (in theory) come away with towns. Instead he went and got 4 and went high potential.
The fact your so focused on them winning 17 games when they had a pick and not more pissed about a team with all that talent you keep talking about getting 38 wins when they did not have a pick. Says a lot more about your understanding of the knicks, the NBA, and what a good team is than it does mine.
And Shumpert sucks compared to Afflalo. I liked him for his swag but he can't score, and gambles on defense to much. At any point of his career I would of traded him for Afflalo with a smile and if the knicks offered that deal to cleveland the Cavs would take it and run.
By DY_nasty Go To PostWhich is still better than Henderson
God help you if someone in Charlotte actually has a breakout year.
MKG might finally become Gerald Wallace
legit shook
I used to be really high on Afflalo before he went back to Denver.
By Dark PhaZe Go To PostMKG might finally become Gerald WallaceLol
legit shook
The Knicks are getting way too much talk in here. They're a 10-8 seed until Melo leaves, so literally as irrelevant as possible in the NBA.
By Zeus Ex Machina Go To PostSays a lot more about your understanding of the knicks, the NBA, and what a good team is than it does mine.
This kind of shit is getting tiresome, you and Vahagn like to do it a lot. Say I'm wrong, say you disagree, talk trash, etc, it's all good, but stop being so fucking personal. It's an easy distinction to make.
Phil Jackson transformed the worst case scenario into the best for the foreseeable future. Make that cause for happiness, that's fine, but I'll look elsewhere and watch games that are of better value than the Knicks'. You would have never turned the tv on for that roster were it not the one of your favorite team.
You say I'm not mad about 38 wins? You realize this is exactly what the Knicks are doing right now and what I'm denouncing? Read better.
By Dark PhaZe Go To PostMKG might finally become Gerald WallaceHe's arguably better right now
legit shook
Wallace was just indestructible and our FO demanded be on the court concussed
By Zeus Ex Machina Go To PostEven if Jackson wanted the playoffs as soon as it was clear that team couldn't do it he did the right thing by setting them up to tank.. Hell if that no good bastard tim Hardaway didn't hit two unnecessary game winner the knicks (in theory) come away with towns. Instead he went and got 4 and went high potential.
Agreed with everything you said.
But damn...it's like the ghost of Hardaway Sr. came back to spite us. Dad made the call.
If dude wanted to tank he should've got rid of Melo
Getting rid of Shumpert still makes no sense in any context
Getting rid of Shumpert still makes no sense in any context
By DY_nasty Go To PostIf dude wanted to tank he should've got rid of Melo
Getting rid of Shumpert still makes no sense in any context
Jackson told Melo to be patient and that last season may be tough with an all new coach, expiring contracts, and a new play set. And to trust the new system as a whole. Melo knew there was a possibility of the entire season breaking down.
But it ultimately didn't matter, because he got hurt shortly into the season and was shut down. So no use even bringing up getting rid of him.
And I still say the Knicks are better with Melo without him by a considerable margin. Our 54 win season wouldn't have happened without him. He put the whole team on his back and he excelled at the 4. He was unstoppable in the low. I'm optimistic that he will come back strong this season.
Even his doctors and Melo himself said the injury wasn't very severe, which is why he healed like 2 months ahead of schedule. And that's huge.
Even his doctors and Melo himself said the injury wasn't very severe, which is why he healed like 2 months ahead of schedule. And that's huge.
By AlphaSnacks Go To PostJackson told Melo to be patient and that last season may be tough with an all new coach, expiring contracts, and a new play set. And to trust the new system as a whole. Melo knew there was a possibility of the entire season breaking down.That's not what I mean lol
But it ultimately didn't matter, because he got hurt shortly into the season and was shut down. So no use even bringing up getting rid of him.
It isn't about 'being patient'. Melo couldn't be happier to get a paycheck like that with zero expectations attached. By the time NY is in a spot to be semi-competitive again, dude will be Stephen Jackson
By DY_nasty Go To PostThat's not what I mean lol
It isn't about 'being patient'. Melo couldn't be happier to get a paycheck like that with zero expectations attached. By the time NY is in a spot to be semi-competitive again, dude will be Stephen Jackson
I also find it funny you defend Shumpert and said the trade made no sense.
Shumpert hasn't grown as a player since he was a rookie. For all the shit Derrick Williams just got here, Shumpert gets some sort of pass? You serious? You've clearly not watched enough Knicks games, because Shumpert was one drunk-driving accident away from being JR's baby bro. Any glimmer of defensive advantage he showed on one side of the court he would give up on the other almost immediately.
His shooting was streakier than his defense.
By AlphaSnacks Go To PostAnd I still say the Knicks are better with Melo without him by a considerable margin. Our 54 win season wouldn't have happened without him. He put the whole team on his back and he excelled at the 4. He was unstoppable in the low. I'm optimistic that he will come back strong this season.Your 54 win season was a while ago. New coach, new roster, new everything - except Melo, he's getting older and he's already got plenty of miles.
Even his doctors and Melo himself said the injury wasn't very severe, which is why he healed like 2 months ahead of schedule. And that's huge.
And of course the Knicks are better with Melo than without, you literally had a squad of d-leaguers at one point.
And no, he didn't just put the whole team on his back wtf lol I'm not sure what that even means. If that's the same as hanging Chandler out to dry, then sure.
On top of that, those same doctors let Melo limp to the all-star game last season when he should've been sat down and iced weeks prior. He shouldn't have even been playing. Being 'ahead of schedule' is some of the biggest fluff in sports.
By AlphaSnacks Go To PostI also find it funny you defend Shumpert and said the trade made no sense.But you didn't even sell high on shumpert
Shumpert hasn't grown as a player since he was a rookie. For all the shit Derrick Williams just got here, Shumpert gets some sort of pass? You serious? You've clearly not watched enough Knicks games, because Shumpert was one drunk-driving accident away from being JR's baby bro. Any glimmer of defensive advantage he showed on one side of the court he would give up on the other almost immediately.
His shooting was streakier than his defense.
and comparing shumpert to derrick williams is like comparing jrue holiday to jimmer fredette. comparing shumpert to a guy that has literally killed someone is kinda lol too. what did shumpert do other than be thrown under the bus and alienated?
knicks are really good at that, but you guys never seem to mention it.
By DY_nasty Go To PostYour 54 win season was a while ago. New coach, new roster, new everything - except Melo, he's getting older and he's already got plenty of miles.Melo will be fine, not worried at all about the injury.
And of course the Knicks are better with Melo than without, you literally had a squad of d-leaguers at one point.
And no, he didn't just put the whole team on his back wtf lol I'm not sure what that even means. If that's the same as hanging Chandler out to dry, then sure.
On top of that, those same doctors let Melo limp to the all-star game last season when he should've been sat down and iced weeks prior. He shouldn't have even been playing. Being 'ahead of schedule' is some of the biggest fluff in sports.
By DY_nasty Go To PostYour 54 win season was a while ago. New coach, new roster, new everything - except Melo, he's getting older and he's already got plenty of miles.
And of course the Knicks are better with Melo than without, you literally had a squad of d-leaguers at one point.
And no, he didn't just put the whole team on his back wtf lol I'm not sure what that even means. If that's the same as hanging Chandler out to dry, then sure.
On top of that, those same doctors let Melo limp to the all-star game last season when he should've been sat down and iced weeks prior. He shouldn't have even been playing. Being 'ahead of schedule' is some of the biggest fluff in sports.
Well they said playing on it wouldn't aggravate it at all...so he played. And they were right. It made no difference.
The only reason I bring up the 2012-2013 season is because a lot of the Melo haters here call him some kind of cancer. And if you look at that 2012-13 roster, it looks like shit, apart from Chandler (who himself was having a mediocre season that year, and constantly had back issues, couldn't make a dunk or simple layup, missed 18 games and had inflated rebound numbers). That roster was the oldest in the league at the time and we were laughed at as a result. But yep, I've said it before and I'll say it again, despite all of that Melo carried that team to 54. Behind Melo it was probably Kidd that was the second most pivotal. Without Melo and Kidd that team would've been a lottery squad.
By DY_nasty Go To PostBut you didn't even sell high on shumpert
and comparing shumpert to derrick williams is like comparing jrue holiday to jimmer fredette. comparing shumpert to a guy that has literally killed someone is kinda lol too. what did shumpert do other than be thrown under the bus and alienated?
knicks are really good at that, but you guys never seem to mention it.
The point still stands. You're painting Shumpert in this bright light of some sort, talking about his trade making no sense. When in reality, he's stagnated and hit his threshold as a player - the same reasons Williams isn't liked. So if we're going to talk about how lamehat Williams is, be consistent and admit that Shumpert isn't very good either - because they're both plagued by similar issues as players in the NBA. I'm not comparing the two players directly. I'm saying they're both mediocre in their respective positions - but one player gets a pass, while the other is ridiculed. Which is funny to me.
Why are you guys still entertaining Gaby? He's nothing other than a professional troll that is factually incorrect in 90% of the things he posts regarding the Knicks.
By DY_nasty Go To PostHe's arguably better right now
Wallace was just indestructible and our FO demanded be on the court concussed
he's not lol
MKG's defense is fukkin overrated anyway--he's good yeah, but I wouldn't put him past a healthy Paul George, Trevor Ariza, or Kawhi Leonard.
By Vahagn Go To PostWhy are you guys still entertaining Gaby? He's nothing other than a professional troll that is factually incorrect in 90% of the things he posts regarding the Knicks.But Kobe
By Dark PhaZe Go To Posthe's not lolCheck his on/off and get back to me
MKG's defense is fukkin overrated anyway–he's good yeah, but I wouldn't put him past a healthy Paul George, Trevor Ariza, or Kawhi Leonard.
Ariza? lol this why Beal has no heartbeat
By Vahagn Go To PostWhy are you guys still entertaining Vahagn? He's nothing other than a professional troll that is factually incorrect in 90% of the things he posts regarding the NBA.All I read was...
By DY_nasty Go To PostCheck his on/off and get back to me
Ariza? lol this why Beal has no heartbeat
Beals post season heart is so stronk, its been the regular season where he hasn't had a consistent pulse
I will take Ariza 99 times out of 100 over MKG in a playoff situation to defend a guy and not get his lungs collapsed.
on/off numbers lol--bruh, the backups are like jeff fukin taylor and jason maxiell--what do you expect the on-off to look like when the guys coming off aren't even NBA players
And to think Vahagn is still mentioning me for the millionth time after he put me on ignore, because a few weeks ago I hurt his feelings when I revealed the great, great secret that love is not always forever...
By Vahagn Go To PostWhy are you guys still entertaining Gaby? He's nothing other than a professional troll that is factually incorrect in 90% of the things he posts regarding the Knicks.am i comprehending correctly on what i just read?