the fact that they maybe have the 3rd worst pg rotation... I think Grant will grow into a decent starter but if he doesn't they are really fucked there
By blackace Go To Postthe fact that they maybe have the 3rd worst pg rotation… I think Grant will grow into a decent starter but if he doesn't they are really fucked there
But hey, at least they're like 25 out of 30 when it comes to SG!
By Gabyskra Go To PostJackson will have next summer to get FA talent? No he won't. They're close to maxed out for summer 2016. The Knicks spent 45% of their cap space on a handful of players that would get wrecked by the Spurs' bench. What's the ceiling for that team? Back in the Amare days, people would clown them for being a second round team with no room for improvement. Now, they're a contender for the first round at best, and it will stay that way. What's the big plan? A lifetime of battling the Bucks for mediocrity? It's not like these players are investments, they won't become high-value trading-chips in a couple seasons. Jackson will retire again, and the jokes will be the same.
Everything you said goes against what is happening though.
With the cap going up the knicks should have about 21 million next year even if Afflalo and D will opt in. If they both don't they will have 34.
Drafting KP was the very definition of an investment move. All the analyst and experts thinks he'll be great in 2-4 seasons when Melo will likely be on his way out.
Also I'm assuming the plan is the same plan as every other normal functional team. Sign players to contracts below their current value if possible or if not that make sure those contracts are short. Don't trade draft picks do the opposite, collect them. How are these bad things? The reason certain teams suck is because they usually do the opposite of those things or draft poorly.
Jose Calderon
Arron Afflalo
Carmelo Anthony
Derrick Williams
Robin Lopez
this is the projected starting lineup... bolded for the funny...
But thank god RoLo doesn't demand touches!!!!
I don't think that will be their forever lineup but that's pretty sad...
Arron Afflalo
Carmelo Anthony
Derrick Williams
Robin Lopez
this is the projected starting lineup... bolded for the funny...
But thank god RoLo doesn't demand touches!!!!
I don't think that will be their forever lineup but that's pretty sad...
By Zeus Ex Machina Go To PostWith the cap going up the knicks should have about 21 million next year even if Afflalo and D will opt in. If they both don't they will have 34.
Ok, I overlooked the fact that apparently some projections say the cap will improve by 30%. This changes the value of existing contracts, obviously, but my general appreciation for what happened this summer does not. It means that money invested in 2015 was all the more important, and than even if growth minimizes mistakes, it also reinforces the importance of good positions taken earlier.
By blackace Go To PostJose CalderonI mean, he doesn't require them to get his production. Its not a bad thing. Knicks just suck and are going to be throwing it to him to bail them out every once in a while and its going to look incredibly shitty.
Arron Afflalo
Carmelo Anthony
Derrick Williams
Robin Lopez
this is the projected starting lineup… bolded for the funny…
But thank god RoLo doesn't demand touches!!!!
I don't think that will be their forever lineup but that's pretty sad…
This year is going to be really, really weird for the Knicks though.
By DY_nasty Go To PostI mean, he doesn't require them to get his production. Its not a bad thing. Knicks just suck and are going to be throwing it to him to bail them out every once in a while and its going to look incredibly shitty.I know what you are saying but if you are starting D-Williams you shouldn't be able to say RoLo not being able to demand the rock is a merit... That goes for Dallas too....
This year is going to be really, really weird for the Knicks though.
By blackace Go To PostI know what you are saying but if you are starting D-Williams you shouldn't be able to say RoLo not being able to demand the rock is a merit… That goes for Dallas too….
No one demands the ball on that roster. Calderon, Afflalo, O'Quinn, they all do not want it.
By blackace Go To PostI know what you are saying but if you are starting D-Williams you shouldn't be able to say RoLo not being able to demand the rock is a merit… That goes for Dallas too….It'd be a good thing for any established team looking to add a guy like Lopez.
Knicks are far, far from that though. Dude's just there to collect his last big check.
By Gabyskra Go To PostNo one demands the ball on that roster. Calderon, Afflalo, O'Quinn, they all do not want it.I'm glad Charlotte never made the deal for Afflalo last year. We were rumored to be out for him a couple of times. I was on the fence while he was in Orlando, but after his time in Denver... naw breh
By blackace Go To PostJose Calderon
Arron Afflalo
Carmelo Anthony
Derrick Williams
Robin Lopez
this is the projected starting lineup… bolded for the funny…
But thank god RoLo doesn't demand touches!!!!
I don't think that will be their forever lineup but that's pretty sad…
Wouldn't you want a defensive Big around those 4 other guys? You put Monroe in there in place of Lopez and opposing teams are going to feast. Who was available this FA beside Monroe who was going to demand touches at center?
Plus I think O'quinn gets the start at the 4 with D will, and KP getting heavy minutes depending on Match ups. All the articles I've read makes me think Williams is going to be part of the bench squad which seems to a more run n gun team which will take advantage of him being a slasher. In the end that 4 spot is going to be KP's, its the reason Phil told LMA he would have to be willing to be play at Center if he wanted to play for NY.
I'm not denying the knicks need a second scorer but RoLo isn't the problem. They need a upgrade at guard.
By Gabyskra Go To PostOk, I overlooked the fact that apparently some projections say the cap will improve by 30%. This changes the value of existing contracts, obviously, but my general appreciation for what happened this summer does not. It means that money invested in 2015 was all the more important, and than even if growth minimizes mistakes, it also reinforces the importance of good positions taken earlier.
But that's why Phil gave out so many 1 year contracts and player option contracts to D will and Afflalo that even if they opt in wont cripple the team. To try again next year with some legit cash.
By Zeus Ex Machina Go To PostWouldn't you want a defensive Big around those 4 other guys? You put Monroe in there in place of Lopez and opposing teams are going to feast. Who was available this FA beside Monroe who was going to demand touches at center?You don't ever want O'Quinn at the 4.
Plus I think O'quinn gets the start at the 4 with D will, and KP getting heavy minutes depending on Match ups. All the articles I've read makes me think Williams is going to be part of the bench squad which seems to a more run n gun team which will take advantage of him being a slasher. In the end that 4 spot is going to be KP's, its the reason Phil told LMA he would have to be willing to be play at Center if he wanted to play for NY.
I'm not denying the knicks need a second scorer but RoLo isn't the problem. They need a upgrade at guard.
But that's why Phil gave out so many 1 year contracts and player option contracts to D will and Afflalo that even if they opt in wont cripple the team. To try again next year with some legit cash.
He did it a lot in Orlando, but... Orlando didn't care lol. Knicks need to just cycle him and Lopez out at the 5 and not even worry about putting KP on the court this year.
Like... It wouldn't be a bad idea to not play KP.
Monroe is going to better on D at the 5... If you got him you dont have to sign Williams... maybe try to pry TT fro Cle or let Kevin Seraphin start at 4...
By Dark PhaZe Go To Postmelo at the 4 in dc would be so stronk
fuk
If I was the Wiz GM, I would have done anything to get rid of Nene. He was by far the worst player of the team in the playoffs, leaving so many offensive rebounds... Gooden, Seraphin, Humphries, all played way better.
We're behaving as if all of the draft picks acquired and knuckleheads jettisoned wasn't a result of Phil's moves.
This team was doomed for 10 years of crap and no useful draft picks other than a first rounder this last season (which on a win now team as was constructed would have had no value).
While there were no franchise altering players that signed up in one offseason, all the pickups were solid.
This team was never a second round team because that second round team was built on the health of Amare's knees and JR being disciplined. The Knicks had a flash in the pan for a year or two, unsustainable and something that needed to be torn up and replaced by something solid. Maybe this thing ends up somewhere, maybe it doesn't. But Gaby's a Knicks fan, beggars can't be choosers.
If Melo's done health wise, the team is fucked. If not, they still have another year or two to build a strong playoff team.
This team was doomed for 10 years of crap and no useful draft picks other than a first rounder this last season (which on a win now team as was constructed would have had no value).
While there were no franchise altering players that signed up in one offseason, all the pickups were solid.
This team was never a second round team because that second round team was built on the health of Amare's knees and JR being disciplined. The Knicks had a flash in the pan for a year or two, unsustainable and something that needed to be torn up and replaced by something solid. Maybe this thing ends up somewhere, maybe it doesn't. But Gaby's a Knicks fan, beggars can't be choosers.
If Melo's done health wise, the team is fucked. If not, they still have another year or two to build a strong playoff team.
Yeah, yeah, keep dancing around, Phil is the best ever who turns shit into gold, we know the music.
What 10 years of crap? No contract lasts more than 5, and even Melo was not on the payroll for that long before July 2014.
Jackson didn't even really go for picks.
Jackson turned Tyson Chandler into Jose Calderon. Let that sink in.
He turned Iman Shumpert into a future very late 2nd rounder (Cavs). Think about that.
What other picks did he get? Tim Hardaway for Jerian Grant is the one that's gonna change everything? They gave away 2 2nd rounders for Hernangomez (whom I like) so once again, they lost a pick.
They did not want to tank at the start of the season, they had to once they realized how fucked up the deals were last summer. Jackson realized that Dalembert, whom he dealt for, was toast, etc. So they got Kristaps Porzingis and now by signing average to below average players, they're back into the vicious circle of a borderline playoffs team who's not going to get rich at the draft. Melo's time is wasted, the recovery is going to take longer. And Phil will be out by then.
What 10 years of crap? No contract lasts more than 5, and even Melo was not on the payroll for that long before July 2014.
Jackson didn't even really go for picks.
Jackson turned Tyson Chandler into Jose Calderon. Let that sink in.
He turned Iman Shumpert into a future very late 2nd rounder (Cavs). Think about that.
What other picks did he get? Tim Hardaway for Jerian Grant is the one that's gonna change everything? They gave away 2 2nd rounders for Hernangomez (whom I like) so once again, they lost a pick.
They did not want to tank at the start of the season, they had to once they realized how fucked up the deals were last summer. Jackson realized that Dalembert, whom he dealt for, was toast, etc. So they got Kristaps Porzingis and now by signing average to below average players, they're back into the vicious circle of a borderline playoffs team who's not going to get rich at the draft. Melo's time is wasted, the recovery is going to take longer. And Phil will be out by then.
lol funny thing is Phil made some great moves to start rebuilding... then shits in the bed during the offseason.. He had cap and no one wanted to play for Fisher and the Knicks.. RoLo is fine and all.. But D-Williams and Aaron have nothing to do with his hands being tied in cap..
By Dark PhaZe Go To Postmelo at the 4 in dc would be so stronk
fuk
Not for nothing if DC whiffs on KD. I think them trying to deal for Melo might happen and the Knicks and Melo might both be down for it. Nothing is happening until this offseason though cause I doubt Melo doesn't wait to maximize his trade kicker.
By Gabyskra Go To PostYeah, yeah, keep dancing around, Phil is the best ever who turns shit into gold, we know the music.
What 10 years of crap? No contract lasts more than 5, and even Melo was not on the payroll for that long before July 2014.
Jackson didn't even really go for picks.
Jackson turned Tyson Chandler into Jose Calderon. Let that sink in.
He turned Iman Shumpert into a future very late 2nd rounder (Cavs). Think about that.
What other picks did he get? Tim Hardaway for Jerian Grant is the one that's gonna change everything? They gave away 2 2nd rounders for Hernangomez (whom I like) so once again, they lost a pick.
They did not want to tank at the start of the season, they had to once they realized how fucked up the deals were last summer. Jackson realized that Dalembert, whom he dealt for, was toast, etc. So they got Kristaps Porzingis and now by signing average to below average players, they're back into the vicious circle of a borderline playoffs team who's not going to get rich at the draft. Melo's time is wasted, the recovery is going to take longer. And Phil will be out by then.
Tyson was playing like trash and looked like he didn't want to be there anymore. I do agree Jose Calderon was a bad trade but he did get a collection of assets for a player after a shitty season who was under a 15 mil contract. Its harder to unload that than your making it seem. It was shitty assets but the Mavs mostly took Chandler back because of their history with him.
Shump is trash straight up. We all saw the finals where when he was asked to step up & he brought nothing. Yeah he should of been traded to the Thunder for a first last year (before Phil) but they played him and he got injured right before the trade deadline. Also Shump was the price of getting rid of that jackass JR. You do that trade 10 times out of 10 in hindsight.
They don't have a pick this year. There is no reason not to build a mid tier roster and try to win as many games as possible. Also Melo is a damn good trade chip if he is healthy. That contract isn't crazy with the cap rising. If he is going to demand a trade it'll be this off season thhough when he can maximize his trade kicker
By blackace Go To Postlol funny thing is Phil made some great moves to start rebuilding… then shits in the bed during the offseason.. He had cap and no one wanted to play for Fisher and the Knicks.. RoLo is fine and all.. But D-Williams and Aaron have nothing to do with his hands being tied in cap..
D Will is getting paid peanuts. So is Afflalo when you realize that Matthews just got a max coming off of an Achilles tear.
No one wants to play for Fisher or Phil isn't true either. At this point if people don't realize that players are going to established teams or back home, they're not following the league. No ones actively avoiding Fish and Phil. They're actively avoiding rebuilding situations. Stars ain't about dat life because they realize it could take years.
Gaby - Phil has acquired 6 picks/rookies in one year. Your math on picks is as bad as your salary cap math.
Traded Tyson for Calderon straight up? I wonder where Shane Larkin/Dalembert/Cleanthony Early pick came from?
What does a 5 year contract have to do with being terrible long term? The Knicks have been terrible going on 15 years now. Like a Decade for teams like the Kings and the Wolves. Dolan has been mismanaging that team for years and years and you're chirping more in this year of semi-competence than you probably did in the 15 years of utter futility. As I said, beggars can't be choosers.
People please stop quoting this guy so that my blocking him will keep being effective.
By Vahagn Go To PostD Will is getting paid peanuts. So is Afflalo when you realize that Matthews just got a max coming off of an Achilles tear.The scrubs on Philly are getting paid in peanuts too so I guess it's genius!
No one wants to play for Fisher or Phil isn't true either. At this point if people don't realize that players are going to established teams or back home, they're not following the league. No ones actively avoiding Fish and Phil. They're actively avoiding rebuilding situations. Stars ain't about dat life because they realize it could take years.
Any star and Melo out east almost for sure equals playoffs.. If they landed a real star the rebuild would be fairly fast...
I will say he hasn't over extended on any players.. but he can't really tank for a pick next year because the Nuggets can swap picks... So playing players peanuts and losing isn't a great look...
By Vahagn Go To PostPeople please stop quoting this guy so that my blocking him will keep being effective.
Such a pleasant fellow.
And yeah geez, I wonder why I don't mention Larkin and Early to the list of great acquisitions! :D
I did mention Dalembert, is that in the plus column too?
By blackace Go To PostThe scrubs on Philly are getting paid in peanuts too so I guess it's genius!
Any star and Melo out east almost for sure equals playoffs.. If they landed a real star the rebuild would be fairly fast…
I will say he hasn't over extended on any players.. but he can't really tank for a pick next year because the Nuggets can swap picks… So playing players peanuts and losing isn't a great look…
Every player is an upgrade and came under market value. Yes, he didn't add a star. But is that really the only metric worth evaluating when exactly 1 star switched teams all summer?
They need another star, I agree but actively upgrading at every position isn't the same as downgrading at every position, which is what Philly is doing.
By Vahagn Go To PostEvery player is an upgrade and came under market value.
Yes, so many teams were willing to give 5 or 6 millions to O'Quinn and Derrick Williams. Because that's how the market works, Phil Jackson can get discount deals.
By Vahagn Go To PostEvery player is an upgrade and came under market value. Yes, he didn't add a star. But is that really the only metric worth evaluating when exactly 1 star switched teams all summer?the 4 isn't upgraded the 1 is still bad and the 2 is meh better...
They need another star, I agree but actively upgrading at every position isn't the same as downgrading at every position, which is what Philly is doing.
Lopez bros were in my dreams last night thanks to this thread probably but rolo had a shaven head. I don't know what to make of this omen.
By blackace Go To Postthe 4 isn't upgraded the 1 is still bad and the 2 is meh better…
ANYONE is an upgrade over Bargnani and Jason Smith. You of all people should know this.
Galloway/Calderon/Grant is better than long stretches of Hardaway Jr and Larkin. And the PG is the least important part of the triangle.
They're not massive upgrades, but he didn't spend substantial money on those positions either. Marginal upgrades for marginal $ seems about right.
This might be gud.
The Los Angeles Clippers are in the planning stages of having a team mascot.
They are unlikely to have the mascot ready for opening night, but they hope to have it in place by the All-Star break.
The Clippers' mascot would attend community events to represent the team in addition to game duties.
By Moris Go To PostThis might be gud.
Does that mean Glen Davis gets a costume and not a jersey?
I still find it funny how many people quickly forget how unassuming the championship rosters of the Bulls and (repeat) Lakers looked back then. Especially the Bulls. Their center was Perdue and an over-the-hill Cartwright. And the roaming vagabond, fucking Stacey King.
Apart from Horace Grant, they were also in a dire situation with 4s. Hell, Grant often played the 5 because he was the only one capable of banging with the true centers of the league back then including Shaq, Hakeem, and Robinson.
Too many words being spent on a Knicks season we've hardly had a glimpse of, imo.
Apart from Horace Grant, they were also in a dire situation with 4s. Hell, Grant often played the 5 because he was the only one capable of banging with the true centers of the league back then including Shaq, Hakeem, and Robinson.
Too many words being spent on a Knicks season we've hardly had a glimpse of, imo.
Wait, what's your point? Are you saying you can afford to have scrubs because the best team of all time also had a few?
:D
And what the hell are you saying about Dennis Rodman?
:D
And what the hell are you saying about Dennis Rodman?
The second repeat Bulls also had Dennis Rodman, arguably one of the best defensive bigs of all time and arguably the best rebounder of all time. Horace Grant was also a damn good player.
By reilo Go To PostThe second repeat Bulls also had Dennis Rodman, arguably one of the best defensive bigs of all time and arguably the best rebounder of all time.And IMO, the best bench player ever, who'd get 18/5/5+ per 36 on badass shooting...
By reilo Go To PostThose teams had 4 of the 10 best players of all time.
The past page and a half has been questioning the Knicks and their lack of 5 and 4 presence. That's why my post only covered those positions and I only drew comparisons to the 1990 Bulls before they were stacked with full blown talent at nearly every position. I'm not talking Kobe, Jordan, Pippen and Gasol.
By reilo Go To PostThe second repeat Bulls also had Dennis Rodman, arguably one of the best defensive bigs of all time and arguably the best rebounder of all time. Horace Grant was also a damn good player.
See above. Dennis Rodman wasn't part of the 1990s Bulls team I was referring to. And clearly I already gave Grant all the credit in the world.
I should also point out that Pau Gasol was a massive risk as Jackson put it himself, he was an unassuming new entry for the repeat Lakers. He could've easily been a bust in the NBA. But he had tons of upside. Even back in 2009 and 2010 that Laker team, apart from Kobe, never looked like anything special. But it worked out and Gasol cemented himself as an all-star player, and a number of other key players shined.
But you don't have a Kobe, Shaq, Jordan, nor Pippen level-tier player on your roster. It's a moot point. A quality big can put you over the hump, but you're still bottom barrel because you don't have that transcending player on your roster. That's why the comparison feels off.
Gasol was already an All-Star and #1 option on a playoff squad before he joined the Lakers, so to call him a "massive risk" is laughable. He was a Top 3 pick ffs. Everyone knew the Lakers would become contenders the moment he joined that squad. That trade is still considered as one of the most lopsided and heated trades of all time, even if Marc Gasol managed to pan out because it made the Lakers instant contenders.
They gave up Kwame Brown and two first-round picks that ended up being Donte Greene and Greivis Vasquez. Marc Gasol was the only thing that panned out in that trade for the Grizzlies.
... and speaking of "massive risks"? Marc Gasol and him becoming this good. That was a footnote in the trade at the time.
Gasol was already an All-Star and #1 option on a playoff squad before he joined the Lakers, so to call him a "massive risk" is laughable. He was a Top 3 pick ffs. Everyone knew the Lakers would become contenders the moment he joined that squad. That trade is still considered as one of the most lopsided and heated trades of all time, even if Marc Gasol managed to pan out because it made the Lakers instant contenders.
They gave up Kwame Brown and two first-round picks that ended up being Donte Greene and Greivis Vasquez. Marc Gasol was the only thing that panned out in that trade for the Grizzlies.
... and speaking of "massive risks"? Marc Gasol and him becoming this good. That was a footnote in the trade at the time.
By AlphaSnacks Go To PostI should also point out that Pau Gasol was a massive risk as Jackson put it himself, he was an unassuming new entry for the repeat Lakers. He could've easily been a bust in the NBA. But he had tons of upside. Even back in 2009 and 2010 that Laker team, apart from Kobe, never looked like anything special. But it worked out and Gasol cemented himself as an all-star player, and a number of other key players shined.
????
He was an All Star in Memphis, a high pick, a steady 20/10/3/2 and even a World champ in 2006, MVP of a tournament that included Ming, Nowitzki and Team USA...
But yeah, total gamble from a visionary.
I'm not the one who called him a risk, that was Jackson.
My entire point is that all this talk about the Knicks being weak in the low is silly, because if you look at past triangle squads they looked just as weak on paper in certain positions, but ended up winning quite a bit despite the deficiency and demonstrated strong defense presence, as well. Which is why I'm saying people should wait until they make the claims until the season kicks off.
My entire point is that all this talk about the Knicks being weak in the low is silly, because if you look at past triangle squads they looked just as weak on paper in certain positions, but ended up winning quite a bit despite the deficiency and demonstrated strong defense presence, as well. Which is why I'm saying people should wait until they make the claims until the season kicks off.
Also
What's your point, man? That Afflalo is better than Buechler? That Lopez is as serviceable as Longley? Because the Knicks second best player would not even contribute as much as the Bulls' sixth best back then... Where did that comparison come from???
The past page and a half has been questioning the Knicks and their lack of 5 and 4 presence. That's why my post only covered those positions and I only drew comparisons to the 1990 Bulls before they were stacked with full blown talent at nearly every position. I'm not talking Kobe, Jordan, Pippen and Gasol.Still.
What's your point, man? That Afflalo is better than Buechler? That Lopez is as serviceable as Longley? Because the Knicks second best player would not even contribute as much as the Bulls' sixth best back then... Where did that comparison come from???
By AlphaSnacks Go To PostI'm not the one who called him a risk, that was Jackson.Two Top 10 players on every roster. Of all time. The Knicks don't even have a Top 10 player this season.
My entire point is that all this talk about the Knicks being weak in the low is silly, because if you look at past triangle squads they looked just as weak on paper in certain positions, but ended up winning quite a bit despite the deficiency and demonstrated strong defense presence, as well. Which is why I'm saying people should wait until they make the claims until the season kicks off.
By Gabyskra Go To PostAlso
Still.
What's your point, man? That Afflalo is better than Buechler? That Lopez is as serviceable as Longley? Because the Knicks second best player would not even contribute as much as the Bulls' sixth best back then… Where did that comparison come from???
Do I really have to repeat the point a 3rd time?
Let me make it clear: stop talking shit and wait until the fucking season starts. If there's one thing NBA-Slaent/NBA-age has always been great at, it's been having their feet shoved in their mouths when their deeply analytical overview of a team is completely wrong. I'm guilty of it just as much as the next guy, fyi.
By reilo Go To PostTwo Top 10 players on every roster. Of all time. The Knicks don't even have a Top 10 player this season.
But if the Knicks sign players of the caliber of Jordan, Kukoc and Grant next season, they're contenders.
(let's say Melo is even half the player Pip was...)
I don't really have anything to add to this, but damn you guys, Ron Harper was the Bulls third best wing player in the 90s.
By rodeoclown Go To PostI don't really have anything to add to this, but damn you guys, Ron Harper was the Bulls third best wing player in the 90s.
Toni was. And he was a killer. After these 3, you didn't need anyone.
Harper played PG. Harper was a really good defender.
By reilo Go To PostTwo Top 10 players on every roster. Of all time. The Knicks don't even have a Top 10 player this season.
They lead them to championships. I'm not talking about championships! I'm talking about a good season, possible playoff berth. A .500 season. The group here is under the impression they will be a 300s team.
Nobody is talking shit, we're just providing a differing opinion. If we waited until the season started and only talked about things in hindsight, this thread would have nobody talking. The entire point of the off-season is to discuss the future. Sitting around and saying "wait and see" is boring and leads to zero discussion.
By Gabyskra Go To PostToni was. And he was a killer. After these 3, you didn't need anyone.Well, yeah, that's what I mean. They had three all time wing defenders all on the court at the same time.
Harper played PG. Harper was a really good defender.
By rodeoclown Go To PostWell, yeah, that's what I mean. They had three all time wing defenders all on the court at the same time.
Oh gotcha