By IWMTB19 Go To PostWP rated Asik as a better offensive player than Rose in Rose's MVP year so I think I can say it's a good bit worse than PER.I think their stance on that is that Rose was just an unconscionable choice. That pretty much seems to be their stance every time the status quo disagrees with WP. It's a very us-against-the-world attitude, but I wouldn't mind it if the statistic were actually good...
Ugh, of course he's a programmer.
By Sharp Go To PostUgh, of course he's a programmer.TBF, that term gets abused, a lot.
By Dark PhaZe Go To PostPretty sure nepotism isn't the answer in sac town
huh
There is continued instability in the Kings front office.
High profile former ESPN analytics guru, Dean Oliver who was hand picked by owner Vivek Ranadive, as Director of Player Personnel, and Head of Analytics a season ago, and who has multiple years left on his contract with the Kings - was told by new Kings VP Vlade Divac not to attend NBA Summer League.
Oliver was in attendance anyway and was seen with King coaches. Oliver was not permitted to be there in his official capacity with the team.
Divac has told confidants that he is strongly opposed to the use of analytics in evaluating players, and has halted all communication with Oliver.
quite the organization over there in sactown
By lovingsteam Go To Postquite the organization over there in sactown
I am not overly sold on analytics also... I mean it's a great tool to be sure but there is a human element that can't be over looked imo
I don't think there's any reason why analytics can't be used to measured to the human element.
A lot of the "human element" is often bad fiction from English majors instead of actual psychology. I care way more about if an NBA prospect has hurt animals in the past than if he played badly in a two game sample in March.
I don't know if signing Rudy Gay, letting go of Isaiah Thomas, or drafting Stauskas were really moves driven (at all) by statistics either. I don't know a single stats guy that didn't hate the Kings letting go of IT2.
A lot of the "human element" is often bad fiction from English majors instead of actual psychology. I care way more about if an NBA prospect has hurt animals in the past than if he played badly in a two game sample in March.
I don't know if signing Rudy Gay, letting go of Isaiah Thomas, or drafting Stauskas were really moves driven (at all) by statistics either. I don't know a single stats guy that didn't hate the Kings letting go of IT2.
There's nothing wrong with using all the information available to you. It'd be dumb not to, even. Most of the time, advanced numbers back up what I see on the court anyway. Although it can sometimes be a little incongruous, like how some of Rubio's advanced metrics aren't terribly impressive but they fall apart when he's not there.
The Rudy Gay trade and signing both broke analytic gurus. Gay's numbers improved on the Kings next to a big man. His efficiency jumped a great deal.
Analytics were used to explain not signing IT. The arguments were passes per possession and time holding on to the ball. With Gay and Cousins, they wanted someone who moved the ball quicker. IT dribbles and dominates more.
The other half of the argument was that IT wouldn't accept a 6th man role and was a defensive liability. It was actually the human element that argued for signing IT since he was a 'great guy' and a part of the heart of the team.
Analytics were used to explain not signing IT. The arguments were passes per possession and time holding on to the ball. With Gay and Cousins, they wanted someone who moved the ball quicker. IT dribbles and dominates more.
The other half of the argument was that IT wouldn't accept a 6th man role and was a defensive liability. It was actually the human element that argued for signing IT since he was a 'great guy' and a part of the heart of the team.
"The human element argued for IT2 staying like the argument that he was too much of an asshole to be a 6th man."
Mmkay.
I think IT2 being near the top of the league in plus or minus and PER is a statistically based argument for keeping him.
Anyway, look forward to being terrible for the next 6 years as well.
Mmkay.
I think IT2 being near the top of the league in plus or minus and PER is a statistically based argument for keeping him.
Anyway, look forward to being terrible for the next 6 years as well.
Analytics people claiming Warriors and Spurs but not claiming a teams with Dean Oliver and John Hollinger in the FO is classic.
That team with Jerry West as an advisor. Pure analytics ya'll.
The reality is its nebulous. Other than Marc Cuban and Daryl Morey (both of whom take gambles on non-analytics friendly players). Most teams have a mix of both and analytics guys have more than their fair share of failures and bad personnel decisions.
That team with Jerry West as an advisor. Pure analytics ya'll.
The reality is its nebulous. Other than Marc Cuban and Daryl Morey (both of whom take gambles on non-analytics friendly players). Most teams have a mix of both and analytics guys have more than their fair share of failures and bad personnel decisions.
By IWMTB19 Go To Post"The human element argued for IT2 staying like the argument that he was too much of an asshole to be a 6th man."
Mmkay.
I think IT2 being near the top of the league in plus or minus and PER is a statistically based argument for keeping him.
Anyway, look forward to being terrible for the next 6 years as well.
From reports, it was PDA (a very analytics friendly guy) that pushed against resigning IT.
re sactown
the fact that management looked at cousins-gay-isaiah and didn't zero in on gay being the problem is cause for worry
also if you watch the game with a discerning eye you don't even need advanced stats, they'll tell you what you likely have already sussed out
the fact that management looked at cousins-gay-isaiah and didn't zero in on gay being the problem is cause for worry
also if you watch the game with a discerning eye you don't even need advanced stats, they'll tell you what you likely have already sussed out
I will take the L for the Marcus Smart pick. I thought his stats suggested he would be smart Reke with Tony Allen's defense. Instead, he's just dumb, asshole Tony Allen.
Stats were good on picking up on McJesus, Nik, Capela, Nurkic though and I think Kyle Anderson and Jordan Adams are still going to be nice also.
The Dante Exum fail was pure eyetest though which made me give up on my scouting abilities and switch entirely to draft modeling through data.
Stats were good on picking up on McJesus, Nik, Capela, Nurkic though and I think Kyle Anderson and Jordan Adams are still going to be nice also.
The Dante Exum fail was pure eyetest though which made me give up on my scouting abilities and switch entirely to draft modeling through data.
I'm not the biggest fan of analytics for very selfish and petty reasons right now. Hinkie is all about them so his fanboys use them to prove that every move he has done is great.
That being said, there is some value in them even I'll admit that.
That being said, there is some value in them even I'll admit that.
Just like with many things, there's value in listening to and understanding both, rather than dismissing one or the other completely.
advanced stats for college guys are stupid tho imo, ridiculously small sample size and huge variance in the quality of opponents. that fact that kevin pelton is trying to using his warp stat to predict rookies is high comedy.
There is value to any worthwhile information. The trick is knowing how to use the information and being able to tell what info is actually useful.
My issue has been with the analytics crowd. They want to take cred for the Spurs or Warriors without taking cred for the Kings. In the end, it's just a little club and they don't want the bad examples to be let in.
edit: I shoul add, btw, that the Dean Oliver rumor is likely bullocks.
My issue has been with the analytics crowd. They want to take cred for the Spurs or Warriors without taking cred for the Kings. In the end, it's just a little club and they don't want the bad examples to be let in.
edit: I shoul add, btw, that the Dean Oliver rumor is likely bullocks.
I think everyone lets the 76ers into the "club." The Kings just haven't made any moves in years which seem to have statistical backing or support.
The Kings had their data that lead to the Rudy Gay trade. They said so at the time. Everyone has their own data if they have analytics set up. The Kings have analytic guys doing work. That data turned out to be good as Gay's play changed when put in the right system. The plays they ran for him and with him were influenced by data. They found that Gay at a lower usage rate becomes more efficient. .
Data is why they took Darren Collison and did not resign IT. (That and PDA being anti-IT for some reason.) That turned out to be smart as the Kings starting lineup performed very well with Collision as the only real change. Remember that people were positive at the start of the season about the Collison over IT choice once they saw the Kings play. Only the terrible coaching move derailed that.
You see, there's likely data and info that argues a point that may not be the prevailing view of the analytics crowd at the time, but that crowd--by the nature of what they're into--should be into hearing conflicting info if it proves useful. Instead, they stick their nose up in the air and pretend to be right when the results shows otherwise.
If it really was about the info and the info being useful then there wouldn't be this strange social caste to the whole thing.
Data is why they took Darren Collison and did not resign IT. (That and PDA being anti-IT for some reason.) That turned out to be smart as the Kings starting lineup performed very well with Collision as the only real change. Remember that people were positive at the start of the season about the Collison over IT choice once they saw the Kings play. Only the terrible coaching move derailed that.
You see, there's likely data and info that argues a point that may not be the prevailing view of the analytics crowd at the time, but that crowd--by the nature of what they're into--should be into hearing conflicting info if it proves useful. Instead, they stick their nose up in the air and pretend to be right when the results shows otherwise.
If it really was about the info and the info being useful then there wouldn't be this strange social caste to the whole thing.
By rodeoclown Go To PostThere's nothing wrong with using all the information available to you. It'd be dumb not to, even. Most of the time, advanced numbers back up what I see on the court anyway. Although it can sometimes be a little incongruous, like how some of Rubio's advanced metrics aren't terribly impressive but they fall apart when he's not there.yeah, I agree
that's incredibly disappointing to hear if that's Vlade's actual stance on the matter to the point where he's ostracizing FO people still on the Kings payroll and even more disturbing that Vivek is advocating this shit by not stepping in to do something about it
You can't just ignore the analytics perspective anymore considering the wealth of information it provides but you also don't have to let it be a psychotic obsession as a be-all/end-all like IWMTB does.
By SamuraiX- Go To Postyeah, I agreeEven if all you do is use analytics to help decide who to scout in more depth (there are a lot of people playing basketball, after all), they can still be tremendously helpful.
that's incredibly disappointing to hear if that's Vlade's actual stance on the matter to the point where he's ostracizing FO people still on the Kings payroll and even more disturbing that Vivek is advocating this shit by not stepping in to do something about it
You can't just ignore the analytics perspective anymore considering the wealth of information it provides but you also don't have to let it be a psychotic obsession as a be-all/end-all like IWMTB does.
Like I said, that Dean Oliver report is likely bullocks.
1. Comes from something called Sportando. I am pretty sure that's the name of a vapor store cafe in Corpus Christi.
2. Vivek is still a data nerd millionaire that values guys like Oliver.
3. Vlade is basically a beardy, smokey voiced sesame street approach to everything. Cooperate and be friends and listen and talk. Outcasting an employee doesn't vibe.
1. Comes from something called Sportando. I am pretty sure that's the name of a vapor store cafe in Corpus Christi.
2. Vivek is still a data nerd millionaire that values guys like Oliver.
3. Vlade is basically a beardy, smokey voiced sesame street approach to everything. Cooperate and be friends and listen and talk. Outcasting an employee doesn't vibe.
It's not exactly where NBA news or Kings info breaks.
There's been a run of rumors about the Kings. Especially once PDA was told he's no longer top dog. The rumors pop up in the oddest places. Except nothing comes of these rumors. Even when the rumors come from normally reliable people, like Woj, they don't go anywhere. Hell, for all the inside info Woj apparently had before the draft, he somehow missed the boat on about every Kings FA signing and got scooped by other reporters.
This is what's likely:
Dean Oliver felt secure with PDA and the Denver people here. With the Denver crowd gone, he probably has less say. He's not ignored, but Vlade is probably not a analytics buddy like PDA was. So Dean isn't being ignored, but he is no longer with the in-crowd.
News comes out *nationally* that Peja has been offered a job. This is not news on the local front. It was very obviously hinted at by Vlade himself weeks ago. Now it's national news.
You combine Dean Oliver losing his Denver buds with Peja being offered a job, and boom! you create Dean Oliver on the outs narrative. Maybe someone has interest in creating this news because they'd like to steal Oliver away. Who knows. However, it's created via working established narratives. You find someone willing to push it out and voila. You created news.
There's been a run of rumors about the Kings. Especially once PDA was told he's no longer top dog. The rumors pop up in the oddest places. Except nothing comes of these rumors. Even when the rumors come from normally reliable people, like Woj, they don't go anywhere. Hell, for all the inside info Woj apparently had before the draft, he somehow missed the boat on about every Kings FA signing and got scooped by other reporters.
This is what's likely:
Dean Oliver felt secure with PDA and the Denver people here. With the Denver crowd gone, he probably has less say. He's not ignored, but Vlade is probably not a analytics buddy like PDA was. So Dean isn't being ignored, but he is no longer with the in-crowd.
News comes out *nationally* that Peja has been offered a job. This is not news on the local front. It was very obviously hinted at by Vlade himself weeks ago. Now it's national news.
You combine Dean Oliver losing his Denver buds with Peja being offered a job, and boom! you create Dean Oliver on the outs narrative. Maybe someone has interest in creating this news because they'd like to steal Oliver away. Who knows. However, it's created via working established narratives. You find someone willing to push it out and voila. You created news.
I don't know, Karl and Cousins rift seemed really real. Kings were discussing Boogie-trade packages, Kings ended up interested in every free agent that reports said they were and signed Rondo. The FO not knowing that Vlade had real power until the media asked him and Vivek backed him up is insane.
I think it's far more likely that Sacramento is a dysfunctional shit show right now with scattered leadership.
I think it's far more likely that Sacramento is a dysfunctional shit show right now with scattered leadership.
Karl and Cousins rift is real. Kings were not looking to trade Boogie. Karl may have sent out feelers, but Karl cannot trade players.
Kings did not pursue Monta Ellis. They didn't pursue Tobias Harris. Players they were interested in and offered deals to that they did not sign were: Bargs, Matthews and Teletovic. Probably Danny Green.
Kings did not pursue Monta Ellis. They didn't pursue Tobias Harris. Players they were interested in and offered deals to that they did not sign were: Bargs, Matthews and Teletovic. Probably Danny Green.
By etiolation Go To PostKarl and Cousins rift is real. Kings were not looking to trade Boogie. Karl may have sent out feelers, but Karl cannot trade players.
I can't imagine many coaches circumventing the FO/GM to put together a trade package for a player the FO adamantly denied was available. That's a huge red flag in and of itself.
I just feel more likely than someone trying to sabotage The Kings with fabricated info that we later find out is accurate a majority of the time, that the reality is The Kings are a hot mess.
It is a red flag. It may be that Karl thought he could do it with PDA there, but got informed Vlade was the new postmaster. Vlade himself said that Karl must learn to trust him, so that issue is likely there.
The problem is that the rumors aren't found to be true a majority of the time. They are very partial truths some of the times. The Kings apparently offered every FA more money and got turned down. Except not. They were looking to trade Cousins, except not.
The Kings have been a mess? Sure. However, that is being used to just fling mud at the wall and see what sticks. Understanding what the mess was better informs the validity of the rumors. The mess was firing Malone. That mess came from Mullin/PDA. After that, there's been a ton of fallout. However, none of that fallout or mess ever had anything to do with trading Cousins. That was Karl alone and Karl has no power in that matter.
The problem is that the rumors aren't found to be true a majority of the time. They are very partial truths some of the times. The Kings apparently offered every FA more money and got turned down. Except not. They were looking to trade Cousins, except not.
The Kings have been a mess? Sure. However, that is being used to just fling mud at the wall and see what sticks. Understanding what the mess was better informs the validity of the rumors. The mess was firing Malone. That mess came from Mullin/PDA. After that, there's been a ton of fallout. However, none of that fallout or mess ever had anything to do with trading Cousins. That was Karl alone and Karl has no power in that matter.
See ya later shabazz. Barely knew ya. Glad that this probably means that TJ has a roster spot.
And another year of chalmas.
And another year of chalmas.
By vire Go To PostGetting rid of Shabazz over Chalmers? What the fucking fuck Riley?…chalmers stay surviving lol.
Don't like this one bit.
By etiolation Go To PostKings still employ Dean Oliver. Likely still use analytic information.
By lovingsteam Go To PostDivac has told confidants that he is strongly opposed to the use of analytics in evaluating players, and has halted all communication with Oliver.What timing.
math nerds rekt
etiolation rekt
kings disrespekt
I believe the report 100% and I even predicted this shit yesterday. It was obvious.
Napier was trash anyways, don't think he was going to make it here long-term.
I guess this clears room for Josh Richardson?
I guess this clears room for Josh Richardson?
Vivek is taking his revenge on the math nerds. He thinks that they've betrayed/failed him (for the last time) and so they must be purged. I knew it all along.
well that's weird
napier was trash his rookie year but a protected 2nd is literally nothing so whatever
napier was trash his rookie year but a protected 2nd is literally nothing so whatever
Well these are the most definite locked spots (12):
Dragic, Wade, Deng, Bosh, Whiteside, Chalmers, Green, Winslow, McBob, Stoudemire, Andersen, Haslem
I think they've been trying hard as fuck to trade Andersen, but assuming he stays, these are the others left over...
Richardson
Ennis
Z. Dragic
Johnson
Walker
My guess is that Walker and Ennis get left out. We'll keep Goran's brother because #HeatFamily and I think they'll keep Johnson and Richardson since those two have flashed potential of not being complete garbage.
Dragic, Wade, Deng, Bosh, Whiteside, Chalmers, Green, Winslow, McBob, Stoudemire, Andersen, Haslem
I think they've been trying hard as fuck to trade Andersen, but assuming he stays, these are the others left over...
Richardson
Ennis
Z. Dragic
Johnson
Walker
My guess is that Walker and Ennis get left out. We'll keep Goran's brother because #HeatFamily and I think they'll keep Johnson and Richardson since those two have flashed potential of not being complete garbage.
By Red Blaster Go To Postthe only logical conclusion is that we're getting lebron next year since we got his favorite player
What's worse: Heat fans having actually believed Napier would convince Bron to stay or etio believing there's a national conspiracy making the Kings look like a dysfunctional organization
By etiolation Go To Postedit: I shoul add, btw, that the Dean Oliver rumor is likely bullocks.
By etiolation Go To PostLike I said, that Dean Oliver report is likely bullocks.
By etiolation Go To PostYou combine Dean Oliver losing his Denver buds with Peja being offered a job, and boom! you create Dean Oliver on the outs narrative. Maybe someone has interest in creating this news because they'd like to steal Oliver away. Who knows. However, it's created via working established narratives. You find someone willing to push it out and voila. You created news.
etio plz respond
By Forever Go To Post
Apparently it's the Denver thing. The rest of the Denver crew left, so he is going or wants to go as well. This leaves Karl as the last bit of the PDA/Mullin crew.
Kings will replace him with another analytics guy. Was wrong about Oliver not leaving, but not wrong as to why or the analytics.
By Sharp Go To PostEven if all you do is use analytics to help decide who to scout in more depth (there are a lot of people playing basketball, after all), they can still be tremendously helpful.Yeah, exactly. It's incredibly shortsighted to just shun it out entirely but I doubt that's what's happening here with Vlade. He's never indicated as such that he's vehemently against analytics. That's just the narrative the media decided to draw up today based on the Kings parting ways with guys left over from the PDA regime, like eti has extensively explained.
All the Kings insiders/beat writers are reporting that the organization definitely intends to replace Oliver in due time.
Considering sportando broke the news, I'm inclined to trust their reporting, especially now that the Kings have received backlash.
why does no one like Lillard ;_; /db
Portland Trail Blazers guard Damian Lillard told CBS Sports Radio's Jody MacDonald that he doesn't plan to attend USA Basketball's minicamp in Las Vegas in August, as Team USA cut him before the FIBA World Cup last summer. Here's the exchange from The Jody Mac Show:
Are you headed to Vegas next month?
Umm, probably not.
Why not?
I did it the last few summers. Last summer I didn't make it, so I don't know why I would go. If I got cut last summer, I don't think I'm a part of it.
Lillard was cut from last summer's roster just before Team USA went to Spain, and he obviously felt overlooked. USA Basketball chose Stephen Curry, Kyrie Irving and Derrick Rose as their point guards at the time.
why does no one like Lillard ;_; /db
By giririsss Go To Postlillards in a weird spot where he's a good player, but there are a ton of great pg's going around.and he's a ho
lma and lillard in the same room must've been some degrassi shit
By thekad Go To PostConsidering sportando broke the news, I'm inclined to trust their reporting, especially now that the Kings have received backlash.Agreed. Kings fans tried to attack their credibility but they were right.
Now that this whole thing has blown up in public I'm sure Vivek will hire someone with a similar title, but you'd have to be incredibly delusional to think that this is just a routine changing of the guard. Dean Oliver is regarded as a star in the analytics field, etiolation knows this, which is why he didn't want to believe he was gone.
Kicking Dean out is clearly about Vlade and/or Vivek wanting to marginalize that department. They don't want anyone in that position who could exercise real clout. The new guy will exist only to check a box, not to have any real influence over anything.