I just don't understand why athletes that have it good today can't talk about how shitty they had it then. Does everything need to be a comparison? Is a single mother earning $45,000 per year not allowed to talk about how rough she has it because there's somewhere a single mother of two earning $35,000 per year? It's silly and outright regressive and doesn't benefit anyone.
These multi-millionaire athletes discussing where they came from and what the exploitations they faced by these multi-billion dollar institutions is worth discussing, on their terms, in their language, from their perspective.
And let's not get it twisted: the regular students are losing in this race to the bottom as the NCAA is trying to preserve its multi-billion dollar industry while they profit off of free labor from poor black kids. When you see students filling the seats during March Madness, ask yourself this: did they get those tickets for free?
These multi-millionaire athletes discussing where they came from and what the exploitations they faced by these multi-billion dollar institutions is worth discussing, on their terms, in their language, from their perspective.
And let's not get it twisted: the regular students are losing in this race to the bottom as the NCAA is trying to preserve its multi-billion dollar industry while they profit off of free labor from poor black kids. When you see students filling the seats during March Madness, ask yourself this: did they get those tickets for free?
Jalen Rose actually pretty consistently talks about this, gets it out to mainstream audiences the shit he endured and athletes still endure but like clearly he should shut up. He doesn't know what the fuck he's saying because he has money now.
i will however say that was the best series of well written lazy comparisons, hyperbole, and stereotypes i've read in a while
CEOs, local deities, tangents about denmark and japan like they have anything to do with the actual topic.... guy cmon lol. who hurt you
CEOs, local deities, tangents about denmark and japan like they have anything to do with the actual topic.... guy cmon lol. who hurt you
By s y Go To PostNBA March 2018 | A NYT Opinion column by LiveFromKyoto
Omg
By DY_nasty Go To Postthen make that argument and stop labeling every athlete as ben simmonsI'd like to point out in all fairness some of them could easily have more problems when you have to study a multipage document about shit you're not allowed to accept, and that includes shit like a damn burger from your coach. I didn't have to worry about how I was fed in fucking college.
you really acting like student athletes can't play ball and be broke at the same time or that they're somehow immune to the same problems the rest of the student body has
By Random Ass Username Go To PostBut you're having a bitchfest for some reason about pros talking about and making analogies to slavery, which is very well is, being exploited for labor. And calling them hypocrites for using that system, how dare they climb up by some fucking means. They're megaphoning how fucked up it is and they're not wrong. But they don't get to have a voice now?
No. It is absolutely not slavery. I don't even know what kind of funhouse-mirror version of that term you have to arrive at to call it such. They were not rounded up and forced into it. They're not caught up in a cycle of exploitation and abuse that they can't escape from. They're entering a voluntary training and education program under their own free will to achieve a dream. They are not living a life that is worse than any other postsecondary student who doesn't get a free ride, and in hopes of less. The guys you're talking about, the ones talented enough to be considered cheated out of an NBA salary or drawing in fans, they don't even have to go there in the first place. They can play ball in all kinds of places, they're going there willingly in exchange for exposure that they don't think they'll get in Europe or China, or because they're not comfortable going abroad alone.
You can say it's unequitable. You can say the NCAA is profiting disproportionately from their efforts. You can say their rules are arbitrary and frequently obscene. These are all evidently true. But don't trivialize terms like slavery in a world where that's still a real institution crushing millions of lives.
By DY_nasty Go To Postthen make that argument and stop labeling every athlete as ben simmons
you really acting like student athletes can't play ball and be broke at the same time or that they're somehow immune to the same problems the rest of the student body has
Student athletes can play ball and be broke at the same time.
They're not somehow immune to (most of) the same problems the rest of the student body has.
But they do face fewer of them - namely professors bending over to accommodate them and not having to face student debt. If they're victims in that sense, then so is absolutely everybody in postsecondary education.
I dunno guys, it's not like I don't see your points, it's not like I don't even agree with a lot of them, I just think there's a larger picture here.
They do face student debt. Not everyone gets a full scholarship. Or even a scholarship at all. And if the ones that do have full scholarships get injured and want to continue their education? Debt.
So the mentality that these people do not deserve monetary compensation for their labor is what? Oh right it's not slavery or based in such an ideology because the only slavery is transported to a foreign destination and made to live in squalor. Okay. Starving for some weeks after you exhausted your food stipend is chill though and accepting a burger from a coach being a violation that could kick you entirely out of the damn program and school is just, well, tough shit. Listen to yourself. "These people are undergoing so much worse." Fallacies for fucking days here.
By Kibner Go To PostThey do face student debt. Not everyone gets a full scholarship. Or even a scholarship at all. And if the ones that do have full scholarships get injured and want to continue their education? Debt.All of them on full rides and fed all month what are you talking about? 🙄
By Kibner Go To PostThey do face student debt. Not everyone gets a full scholarship. Or even a scholarship at all. And if the ones that do have full scholarships get injured and want to continue their education? Debt.At least they get the chance to reminisce on that time the NCAA made billions off him
By Kibner Go To PostThey do face student debt. Not everyone gets a full scholarship. Or even a scholarship at all. And if the ones that do have full scholarships get injured and want to continue their education? Debt.And they can't even profit off of their college career after they are done.
The NCAA owns their body, their labor, their image. Not slavery though. That's only an acceptable term if the whole venture is even more depraved and more forced. Okay. Not really sure where the semantics assists in what's clearly exploitation regardless.
The NCAA lawyers used the 13th amendment (yes, the one abolishing slavery) just recently to argue that it had the right to not pay student-athletes:
If you don't like the former players making the slavery comparison, then maybe you should listen to the NCAA itself making the same argument?
If you don't like the former players making the slavery comparison, then maybe you should listen to the NCAA itself making the same argument?
Right? I forgot to bring that up. No coincidence at all they're bringing slavery and prison labor up themselves to consitutionally protect their exploitation of athletes in college. The only acceptable premise here would be it's all amateurism and no one gets paid. Instead the NCAA is a billion dollar business full of lets be real here, rich white dudes who simply do not want to compensate athletes for their labor so they can in turn make more money themselves. Not a plantation mentality my ass.
By livefromkyoto Go To PostNo. It is absolutely not slavery. I don't even know what kind of funhouse-mirror version of that term you have to arrive at to call it such. They were not rounded up and forced into it. They're not caught up in a cycle of exploitation and abuse that they can't escape from. They're entering a voluntary training and education program under their own free will to achieve a dream. They are not living a life that is worse than any other postsecondary student who doesn't get a free ride, and in hopes of less. The guys you're talking about, the ones talented enough to be considered cheated out of an NBA salary or drawing in fans, they don't even have to go there in the first place. They can play ball in all kinds of places, they're going there willingly in exchange for exposure that they don't think they'll get in Europe or China, or because they're not comfortable going abroad alone.no no no, they are lol. and also you're displaying over and over again that you're not aware of what this 'free ride' is. do you know how many legally obligated practice hours you have to hit during a week? do you know what the monthly stipends are? mandated functions? you have a hell of a lot more freedom waiting tables and funny thing about that is you actually get tipped at the end of the day. oh and when you get hurt, you aren't forced to use the school's junior varsity medical staff if you can't afford insurance (you can't).
You can say it's unequitable. You can say the NCAA is profiting disproportionately from their efforts. You can say their rules are arbitrary and frequently obscene. These are all evidently true. But don't trivialize terms like slavery in a world where that's still a real institution crushing millions of lives.
Also it'd be a lot easier to dodge the indentured servitude stuff if they wouldn't cite the 13th amendment in their defense for not paying people for their labor.
Student athletes can play ball and be broke at the same time.They absolutely do not. You're again taking some bits and pieces from the absolute largest institutions for a select few of players - and then ignoring the fact that fewer still somehow go on to be millionaires through the big leagues. Furthermore, lets not act like these institutions don't explicitly create these classes and employ these professors to get around the guidelines that keep that school a school. If you want to get mad at the kids for taking the class, then get mad at the much larger institution that's forcing them to take it after forging SAT records on their behalf as well. Bending rules to get a kid that can fill up the stands? Sure, why not - but lets be sure to blame the players for chasing the carrot.
They're not somehow immune to (most of) the same problems the rest of the student body has.
But they do face fewer of them - namely professors bending over to accommodate them and not having to face student debt. If they're victims in that sense, then so is absolutely everybody in postsecondary education.
I dunno guys, it's not like I don't see your points, it's not like I don't even agree with a lot of them, I just think there's a larger picture here.
By reilo Go To PostThe NCAA lawyers used the 13th amendment (yes, the one abolishing slavery) just recently to argue that it had the right to not pay student-athletes:The transfer rules exist JUST to keep guys locked to a school as well lol
If you don't like the former players making the slavery comparison, then maybe you should listen to the NCAA itself making the same argument?
Want to get out of this situation? Just wager two years and roll the dice. We absolutely support you in your lolololgetfuktkid
All I know is it's a pretty fucking awful ordeal if a coach can't even buy a kid breakfast who just lost his fucking mother without putting the athlete's entire future in jeopardy.
An absence of choices is not a choice. It's an extremely false dichotomy to argue that students can "take it or leave it".
Or hell, if we are to take the NCAA lawyers at face value, replace "slave labor" with the term "unpaid prison labor". Does that make anyone feel better?
You can also go live in some kind of monastery to avoid the rat race of our capitalistic society. There's also just realistic choices. Also these kids aren't just playing for themselves. Many have a whole family they're looking to support. But let's also ignore the very real circumstances surrounding the choices being made.
oh and olympic/junior olympic obligations? female athletes that get pregnant? extended leave for any family situation?
get ready to call a lawyer you can't afford and pray that you get a quick human interest piece from the espn before you get sent to the cleaners
if your only argument is the few guys who win the rat race then you ain't really trying imo
get ready to call a lawyer you can't afford and pray that you get a quick human interest piece from the espn before you get sent to the cleaners
if your only argument is the few guys who win the rat race then you ain't really trying imo
Hey if you got into the NBA who are you to bitch about literally starving in your college days. You paid now. Shush.
If we're not gonna get our reparations we should at least be able to make hyperbolic comparisons to slavery...
Sorry LFK. Your view point seems to be skewed.
The current American system for college is pure shit. Student debt that takes a life time to pay off isn't good for society. It's actually terrible for society. It's terrible for the students. It's terrible for the next generation of students when their teacher has to take a second job to pay off their teaching degree, so they can't show up rested and focused to their primary job.
It's fucked up. The whole situation is fucked up. I don't think it's sustainable. I fully expect that a revolution in the space has to happen.
That doesn't mean that what the NCAA is doing is in anyway, NOT fucked up. it is. It's a billion dollar industry where the employees aren't paid. And they do face serious risks, you tear an ACL, break a foot bone, any of that, you lose your scholarship and probably the draft. You might get into the g-league when you rehab your self, pay for your own doctors, and work your way back. Might.
Both are predatory. Both can fuck up your life if you don't finish / get sick and drop out.
And most of aren't in on this because some NBA super stars are calling it out. This has long been a stance of everyone here. And it's not about the guys who made it. It's about the guys who didn't.
Frankly, I wish more did what brandon Jennings did and went to europe for a year and got paid.
The current American system for college is pure shit. Student debt that takes a life time to pay off isn't good for society. It's actually terrible for society. It's terrible for the students. It's terrible for the next generation of students when their teacher has to take a second job to pay off their teaching degree, so they can't show up rested and focused to their primary job.
It's fucked up. The whole situation is fucked up. I don't think it's sustainable. I fully expect that a revolution in the space has to happen.
That doesn't mean that what the NCAA is doing is in anyway, NOT fucked up. it is. It's a billion dollar industry where the employees aren't paid. And they do face serious risks, you tear an ACL, break a foot bone, any of that, you lose your scholarship and probably the draft. You might get into the g-league when you rehab your self, pay for your own doctors, and work your way back. Might.
Both are predatory. Both can fuck up your life if you don't finish / get sick and drop out.
And most of aren't in on this because some NBA super stars are calling it out. This has long been a stance of everyone here. And it's not about the guys who made it. It's about the guys who didn't.
Frankly, I wish more did what brandon Jennings did and went to europe for a year and got paid.
Damn you guys are going hard, lol. Let me at least get some work done here.
Man, if you're going to jump all over me at least read what I'm writing. I have cited multiple types of actual slavery going on right now that don't involve being dragged out to somebody else's country. Forced labour, child labour, indentured/debt labour, forced sex work, these things are happening everywhere. They're happening to the people who made your sneakers and your phone and your jersey. No, accepting a spot on a basketball team is not comparable to that. The qualitative difference is meaningful.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostSo the mentality that these people do not deserve monetary compensation for their labor is what? Oh right it's not slavery or based in such an ideology because the only slavery is transported to a foreign destination and made to live in squalor.
Man, if you're going to jump all over me at least read what I'm writing. I have cited multiple types of actual slavery going on right now that don't involve being dragged out to somebody else's country. Forced labour, child labour, indentured/debt labour, forced sex work, these things are happening everywhere. They're happening to the people who made your sneakers and your phone and your jersey. No, accepting a spot on a basketball team is not comparable to that. The qualitative difference is meaningful.
By giririsss Go To PostSorry LFK. Your view point seems to be skewed.
it aint skewed. it's just flat out wrong.
You're again being incredibly dishonest about the predatory development and scouting of kids in the inner cities as if that's just a coincidence and not another means by which they ensure the "choices" you laud so much that are not really there. You keep chastising these players for daring to speak up about an entirely predatory and exploitative process from middle school, yes middle school, on up towards and into college where by a bunch of coaches, administrations and shit basically use these players for their own profiteering ends. And instead of taking umbrage with such a broken exploitative system we're having a debate about the players, especially the successful ones, daring to call it slavery even as the NCAA argues in court "please let us treat them like slaves"? The hell is this. Plus the successful players are in the best position to call this out given they now have status, can't be hand waved as merely bitter their prospects didn't pan out, megaphones and are literally first hand fucking resources about a broken predatory system. "Oh but how fucking could they, choices, *other ass pulls*" is all I'm getting from you and I find it disgusting.
You're seriously on one with "but in the UAE" which now switched to "but human trafficking domestically." Neither is relevant. What's this high horse crap about for real?
You're seriously on one with "but in the UAE" which now switched to "but human trafficking domestically." Neither is relevant. What's this high horse crap about for real?
I think what you're missing here is, you're not wrong. You're right. That stuff is beyond stupid. It's dehumanizing. It's ruining society (and I meant that literally).
There's a real possibility soon that because of the stupidity surrounding higher education there are going to be several generations with serious declining birth rates etc, and people who need to work to a much later stage in life.
But it doesn't make what the NCAA do right, either. Lots of those "student" athletes have to go through stupid training regimes too. ... and they're not there for the education. They're there to possibly make a pro-league. Which you could say is what they're really studying for. But they're not actually being trained for that.
I mean if your college was ALSO forcing you to be part of a reality tv program that you didn't get paid for, and it was compulsary to get your eudcation, and they profited massively from it. You'd be pretty pissed.
There's a real possibility soon that because of the stupidity surrounding higher education there are going to be several generations with serious declining birth rates etc, and people who need to work to a much later stage in life.
But it doesn't make what the NCAA do right, either. Lots of those "student" athletes have to go through stupid training regimes too. ... and they're not there for the education. They're there to possibly make a pro-league. Which you could say is what they're really studying for. But they're not actually being trained for that.
I mean if your college was ALSO forcing you to be part of a reality tv program that you didn't get paid for, and it was compulsary to get your eudcation, and they profited massively from it. You'd be pretty pissed.
The idea that it's just the NCAA is a farce too. It's a whole system of exploitation that starts way fucking younger and even funnels these kids to certain schools based on who's throwing money at their damn school and high school coach.
By DY_nasty Go To Posti will however say that was the best series of well written lazy comparisons, hyperbole, and stereotypes i've read in a whilelol
CEOs, local deities, tangents about denmark and japan like they have anything to do with the actual topic…. guy cmon lol. who hurt you
Has everyone proclaiming "They make billions!!" actually read into the financials of these athletic departments?
By diehard Go To PostHas everyone proclaiming "They make billions!!" actually read into the financials of these athletic departments?I'm not sure about the billions, but i know it's worth hundreds of millions. to them. I think March Madness alone makes an obscene profit.
You mean when they throw millions at a new stadium or locker facilities so they can pretend they're a nonprofit or paying a coach obscene amounts?
By diehard Go To PostHas everyone proclaiming "They make billions!!" actually read into the financials of these athletic departments?The Cardinals made like 20+ million a year in profit..
By Random Ass Username Go To PostYou mean when they throw millions at a new stadium or locker facilities so they can pretend they're a nonprofit or ?Those (the stadium directly, training facilities indirectly) increase revenue. 20 of almost 1100 programs turn a profit, the median is a loss of $11.3 million.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostI think you're ignoring the point entirely.Which point? There have been multiple.
By diehard Go To PostWhich point? There have been multiple.
A lot of programs will include any loss they can, including other sports losses, to bring their profit margin to 0. There is a huge incentive to not show that you're making money.
To do that, they'll literally spend the money on ANYTHING except paying the athletes. Need a 6th stadium? Done. Coach needs a $10M bonus? Done. You want to replace all of your weights machines with the new ones despite only getting them last year? Done.
By giririsss Go To PostA lot of programs will include any loss they can, including other sports losses, to bring their profit margin to 0. There is a huge incentive to not show that you're making money.Of course they do, almost any non-profit or government agency does this.
To do that, they'll literally spend the money on ANYTHING except paying the athletes. Need a 6th stadium? Done. Coach needs a $10M bonus? Done. You want to replace all of your weights machines with the new ones despite only getting them last year? Done.
late but holy shit at that vid of Carter Williams, those open looks are insane, I don't even get that open playing pick up ball.
so washed.
so washed.
By diehard Go To PostOf course they do, almost any non-profit or government agency does this.Right. Even a lot of businesses do, to re-invest in the business and grow. Business.
But they make a billion dollars a year on march madness tv deal a lone.
So it's not like they're struggling to find revenue.
By diehard Go To PostOf course they do, almost any non-profit or government agency does this.Schools can and do post huge profits
By Smokey Go To PostLFK you gonna get this SLAENT work today
Lol, it's not like I never dish it out, so I guess I have to take it when it comes my way.
By Random Ass Username Go To PostYou're again being incredibly dishonest about the predatory development and scouting of kids in the inner cities as if that's just a coincidence and not another means by which they ensure the "choices" you laud so much that are not really there. You keep chastising these players for daring to speak up about an entirely predatory and exploitative process from middle school, yes middle school, on up towards and into college where by a bunch of coaches, administrations and shit basically use these players for their own profiteering ends. And instead of taking umbrage with such a broken exploitative system we're having a debate about the players, especially the successful ones, daring to call it slavery even as the NCAA argues in court "please let us treat them like slaves"? The hell is this. Plus the successful players are in the best position to call this out given they now have status, can't be hand waved as merely bitter their prospects didn't pan out, megaphones and are literally first hand fucking resources about a broken predatory system. "Oh but how fucking could they, choices, *other ass pulls*" is all I'm getting from you and I find it disgusting.
You're seriously on one with "but in the UAE" which now switched to "but human trafficking domestically." Neither is relevant. What's this high horse crap about for real?
Yeahh....I've said this a couple of times but I really think you're reading your own version of what I'm writing (I mean, I never even mentioned the UAE, pretty sure my first direct example was migrant strawberry pickers in the US). I'm really not sure how much more detail I can explain my arguments in, so let's just agree to disagree here. I'm just not going to get on board with playing on an NCAA basketball team being literal slavery.
Agree to disagree with no rebuttals for the first paragraph. All that exploitation and financial snake oil salesman shit given to little kids and vulnerable poor families as well as the unpaid labor of people working their ass off in college somehow falls short of the term slavery because domestic human trafficking exists. "Other people have it worse." Absolute vacuum of intellectual retort.
Really the NCAA is an unnecessary stop for these kids that they are almost forced to make if they want a chance to make it. Guys like Noel lost millions because of his one year forced labor to the NCAA...
By blackace Go To PostReally the NCAA is an unnecessary stop for these kids that they are almost forced to make if they want a chance to make it. Guys like Noel lost millions because of his one year forced labor to the NCAA…Noel, who got millions for being a bum might not be the guy you want to use. Calling it "forced labor" is just dumb.