By IWMTB19RPM has been around forever in various forms and it's literally the only NBA stat right now (other than FG% allowed at the rim) that can somewhat judge defense. Every NBA nerd uses it only because it's the only stat that can kind of judge defense. Every other stat is worthless in that respect. And defense is half of the game. If, on average, a team is much better defensively with you on the court, controlling for the defensive performance of your teammates, then you, on average, you probably are a pretty good defensive player.Sure, but my point is that just because people want a statistic that reflects overall player value doesn't mean that the existing statistics are up to the task... or even that it's ultimately worth measuring, except for fanboyish GOAT arguments after they retire I guess. In particular, I question the wisdom of trying to control for the players around you when (AFAIK) performance of a lineup is far more predictive of future performance than any of these individual player statistics are.
(This is more a criticism of statistics like RPM than of PER, since RPM actually is trying to estimate player value).
By SharpBy IWMTB19RPM has been around forever in various forms and it's literally the only NBA stat right now (other than FG% allowed at the rim) that can somewhat judge defense. Every NBA nerd uses it only because it's the only stat that can kind of judge defense. Every other stat is worthless in that respect. And defense is half of the game. If, on average, a team is much better defensively with you on the court, controlling for the defensive performance of your teammates, then you, on average, you probably are a pretty good defensive player.Sure, but my point is that just because people want a statistic that reflects overall player value doesn't mean that the existing statistics are up to the task… or even that it's ultimately worth measuring, except for fanboyish GOAT arguments after they retire I guess. In particular, I question the wisdom of trying to control for the players around you when (AFAIK) performance of a lineup is far more predictive of future performance than any of these individual player statistics are.
(This is more a criticism of statistics like RPM than of PER, since RPM actually is trying to estimate player value).
But you don't make personal decisions with entire lineups. Teams trade, sign, or draft individual players. You don't know how Rondo is going to play with Dirk and Chandler and Monta because that lineup data doesn't exist, but RPM could give a decent prediction of how much impact Rondo is going to provide.
By SharpIt does nothing terribly useful… the level of granularity it's capable of in terms of actually separating out talent from noise is such that anyone who somewhat follows the league will be able to guess it most of the time. You could replace it with MPG in these discussions and it wouldn't make much of a difference.
It's useful insofar as it gives you a faster way to look at a player's box score and say, huh, that dude put up a lot of stats last night.
Tony Parker has an 18.9 career PER and never put up anything above 23 in his career, but none of us are like, "what an overrated bum"
Those of us who don't have Synergy Sports/Sportvu subscriptions, we have to do with the best of what we got.
By IWMTB19But you don't make personal decisions with entire lineups. Teams trade, sign, or draft individual players. You don't know how Rondo is going to play with Dirk and Chandler and Monta because that lineup data doesn't exist, but RPM could give a decent prediction of how much impact Rondo is going to provide.TBH, if I were working in NBA advanced stats I would be spending a lot more effort trying to find lineup-related statistics that I could use to actually estimate how the lineup would look with Rondo in than in trying to find an individual statistic that precisely calculated Rondo's average worth. Even if the latter succeeded in its task, the former would still be more useful to a GM, because (1) ideally you want to find a player who will do *better* than average in your system (allowing you to get the player at below market rate), and (2) if the player is good enough that pretty much any lineup would be better with the player in, odds are you don't need RPM to figure that out. I do realize that such lineup-parameterized statistics (and certainly, any estimation formulae--unless something has changed, I don't think people really try to do this) are a lot harder to come by for fans, but I would imagine that actual NBA front offices have access to them.
As far as the draft goes... I don't follow it in basketball much at all, but I do in baseball to some extent. Minor league baseball and, particularly, amateur baseball aren't nearly as well-studied and it's not entirely clear that the same rules (in terms of what's noise and what's signal, or the relationships between variables) are actually the same in those leagues, which reduces the utility of advanced statistics in early player evaluation. It may be different in basketball though.
IWMTB clutching with dear might on the newest stat while pretending all other defensive stats suck balls.
Give it about two years till the new stat is placed on the pedestal
Steph Curry best defender in the league y'all! Kris Middleton 9th best player in the league y'all!
Give it about two years till the new stat is placed on the pedestal
Steph Curry best defender in the league y'all! Kris Middleton 9th best player in the league y'all!
From Chad Ford
Yo.... What the fuck.
May 16 Update: Every year I stumble across a player that causes me to radically re-evaluate where I have them ranked. This year that player is [Marshon] Brooks.
Within minutes of walking into the gym, it was clear that Brooks was playing at a completely different level than I'm used to seeing from college prospects. As I moved over to Grover, I began to grill him.
"Who does he remind you of?" Grover grinned. I was afraid to answer. Grover smiled and said, "There's a little bit of Kobe in him, isn't there?" He had read my mind.
When you consider that Grover trains Kobe, that's high, high praise.
Brooks was dominant this year in the Big East. He averaged 24.6 ppg while shooting an impressive 48 percent from the field. He had one of the best player efficiency ratings in the draft. He dropped 52 points on Notre Dame, 43 points on Georgetown and 33 points on Alabama. Every time he did it with scary efficiency. In the 52-point outburst against Notre Dame he was 20-for-28 from the field. He also proved to be a terrific rebounder, recording seven double-doubles this season.
Factor in that Brooks has solid size for his position (6-foot-5), an amazing wingspan (7-foot-2) and above average athletic ability and you wonder why Brooks hasn't been in the lottery conversation all year.
Yo.... What the fuck.
By VahagnIWMTB clutching with dear might on the newest stat while pretending all other defensive stats suck balls.I told you a while ago to stop this bullshit, and my position hasn't changed. Find better ways to engage users than make up strawman arguments and attacking them in such a manner.
Give it about two years till the new stat is placed on the pedestal
Steph Curry best defender in the league y'all! Kris Middleton 9th best player in the league y'all!
By reiloBy VahagnIWMTB clutching with dear might on the newest stat while pretending all other defensive stats suck balls.I told you a while ago to stop this bullshit, and my position hasn't changed. Find better ways to engage users than make up strawman arguments.
Give it about two years till the new stat is placed on the pedestal
Steph Curry best defender in the league y'all! Kris Middleton 9th best player in the league y'all!
What the shit is this? Another dude said I'm a stats only guy because I mentioned FT%. I've been told countless times that I only care about Kobe.
Do a better job of being objective and fair. As I've found that people that usually complain about straw man arguments just throw that out with no consistency. I'll expect you to lecture anyone else that does that same towards me.
Also, go back and read what he said. He LITERALLY said very other defensive stat but one is pointless and worthless. What exactly is the straw man I'm building?
/rolleyes
You've been attacking IWMTB19 non-stop directly your entire time here. You're smart enough to understand the difference. Either engage him by actually quoting his post and providing a counter-argument, or respond with a "but IWMTB19 said!" In two years time if he ends up being wrong.
And you clearly know that you saying that IWMTB19 just hops between whatever new stat is out at a time and abandons the old one is exactly what I'm talking about.
You've been attacking IWMTB19 non-stop directly your entire time here. You're smart enough to understand the difference. Either engage him by actually quoting his post and providing a counter-argument, or respond with a "but IWMTB19 said!" In two years time if he ends up being wrong.
And you clearly know that you saying that IWMTB19 just hops between whatever new stat is out at a time and abandons the old one is exactly what I'm talking about.
RT @SteveNash: I'm retiring from basketball. Thanks for all the love through the years. http://t.co/CMqDBSYIrr http://t.co/iNTG6eap4D
Biggest problem with individualized stats is teams need chemistry. Put a great player on a team, it doesn't really matter if the coach doesn't know how to make him mesh in his system. You see this shit time and again.
By reilo/rolleyes
You've been attacking IWMTB19 non-stop directly your entire time here. You're smart enough to understand the difference. Either engage him by actually quoting his post and providing a counter-argument, or respond with a "but IWMTB19 said!" In two years time if he ends up being wrong.
And you clearly know that you saying that IWMTB19 just hops between whatever new stat is out at a time and abandons the old one is exactly what I'm talking about.
When I'm on my phone, quoting and deleting sections and breaking it down piece by piece is a pain in the ass. As is switching pages and finding links and going back and forth between windows.
I think it is PATENTLY ABSURD that Real Plus Minus is the only good defensive stat. Heck, I think it's insane to even consider it a defensive stat. Harden and Curry are top two. Noel isn't top 10 or top 40 for that matter. Yet he's top 10 in both steals and Blocks. That's Robinson and Hakeem shit right there.
That's my counter argument.
Dude I hate to be an asshole but like if you want to debate shit and bring up "but phone" as an argument, wait till you get home or can access a computer.
Nash's Suns teams were the reason I originally got NBA League Pass. I had to watch them. They were too fun and too good and too compelling to miss night to night. It wasn't just enough to look at the box scores the next morning and go, wait, they scored how many points?
It's a shame his career had to end with these LA years.
It's a shame his career had to end with these LA years.
By rodeoclownNash's Suns teams were the reason I originally got NBA League Pass. I had to watch them. They were too fun and too good and too compelling to miss night to night. It wasn't just enough to look at the box scores the next morning and go, wait, they scored how many points?
It's a shame his career had to end with these LA years.
Do you know the context of this then:
Goodbye Steve. One of my favorites ever.
Thanks for making basketball as much fun to watch as it is is to play.
;-;
Thanks for making basketball as much fun to watch as it is is to play.
;-;
good night my sweet prince.
i wish there were more players like nash.
he made the game so fun to watch.
now we have more YNBs playing point.
i wish there were more players like nash.
he made the game so fun to watch.
now we have more YNBs playing point.
By psychintellecthe wasn't retired?who was it that said that he wanted to retire last summer, but the lakers asked him to stay for one more year under his contract as trade bait.
Dude, you should re-read what he said. He said nothing that was controversial nor wrong. You just got a hard-on for IWMTB19 for whatever reason.
You just got all fucking antsy and annoyed because he said it and you made a dumbass counterargument based off of it that can't be nowhere near substantiated based on his posts on the last page, ie, he's clutching to dear life for the hottest and latest advanced stat, he said it was the only good defensive stat, etc.
He did none of that, which is why I called you out. You do it all the fucking time and only when IWMTB19 posts. Stop.
You just got all fucking antsy and annoyed because he said it and you made a dumbass counterargument based off of it that can't be nowhere near substantiated based on his posts on the last page, ie, he's clutching to dear life for the hottest and latest advanced stat, he said it was the only good defensive stat, etc.
He did none of that, which is why I called you out. You do it all the fucking time and only when IWMTB19 posts. Stop.
By dbDo you know the context of this then:I think the Suns bench went on a run?
For real, though, when Jason Richardson banked in that 3 in game 5 against LA that year, I thought the Suns were finally winning the title.
By dbDude I hate to be an asshole but like if you want to debate shit and bring up "but phone" as an argument, wait till you get home or can access a computer.
That's fair.
sorry diehard............ i was bit hard .... we are all friends here.......................... peace all...........
By rodeoclownBy dbDo you know the context of this then:I think the Suns bench went on a run?
For real, though, when Jason Richardson banked in that 3 in game 5 against LA that year, I thought the Suns were finally winning the title.
Fuck Ron Artest.
RT @ZachLowe_NBA: Said it before: Nash and D'Antoni changed the NBA together, and forever. Just ask Pop, and any other thinking coach. Revolutionaries.
By dbWatching Nash highlight reels.Rubio is pretty close in terms of 'wtf how did he make that pass'
I miss sick passing.
vag is feelin himself way too much just cause iwmtb and the rest of us whiffed on exum
its like he forgot all the other times he's been wrong
its like he forgot all the other times he's been wrong
By IWMTB19RPM has been around forever in various forms and it's literally the only NBA stat right now (other than FG% allowed at the rim) that can somewhat judge defense. Every NBA nerd uses it only because it's the only stat that can kind of judge defense. Every other stat is worthless in that respect. And defense is half of the game. If, on average, a team is much better defensively with you on the court, controlling for the defensive performance of your teammates, then you, on average, you probably are a pretty good defensive player.
By dbDude I hate to be an asshole but like if you want to debate shit and bring up "but phone" as an argument, wait till you get home or can access a computer.
That's fair.
By reiloDude, you should re-read what he said. He said nothing that was controversial nor wrong. You just got a hard-on for IWMTB19 for whatever reason.
You just got all fucking antsy and annoyed because he said it and you made a dumbass counterargument based off of it that can't be nowhere near substantiated based on his posts on the last page, ie, he's clutching to dear life for the hottest and latest advanced stat, he said it was the only good defensive stat, etc.
He did none of that, which is why I called you out. You do it all the fucking time and only when IWMTB19 posts. Stop.
Dude. The clutching to the newest stat is how I talk shit about him. Just like the "lulz Kobe" "lulz triangle" shit that gets thrown at me. It's not yo momma jokes man, it's not a big deal.
And the bolded in his quote erases your other assertion that he wasn't labeling it exactly what I said he was.
And what defensive stat is out there that does a good job then?
See how this counter-argument stuff works?
See how this counter-argument stuff works?
By Red Blastervag is feelin himself way too much just cause iwmtb and the rest of us whiffed on exum
its like he forgot all the other times he's been wrong
And I went against stats with Exum :(. vjl's draft model hated him.
Haven't seen Vag post about Nerlens Noel recently though.
By HasphatsAntsFuck Ron Artest.Ugh, I know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlkwFxKbwr4
This was such a special moment for me when it happened. It only lasted like two minutes, but damn, I started screaming. I was watching with my brother in law, a Lakers fan, and he looked like he wanted to die and was talking about Tim Thomas.
Ron Artest ruins everything.
Just about the only good and relevant defensive stats work for traditional centers. And even then with that 3 second rule crap you're going to have weaker numbers.
And it's quite obvious IWMBT19 has Vaggy on ignore right now, so this is even more hilarious lmao.
Talking to a fucking wall, Vaggy. A fucking wall.
Talking to a fucking wall, Vaggy. A fucking wall.
Legit sad he'll never play a token game in a Raptors uni. All these years a lot of people here thought it would happen somehow, some day.
Shame for the game he never won a ring. He's still going to retire with more MVPs than Kobe will ever get, so there's that.
Shame for the game he never won a ring. He's still going to retire with more MVPs than Kobe will ever get, so there's that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zDoYDwVCEw
133 points in regulation. Goddamn.
Young Boris Diaw looking so athletic, damn.
133 points in regulation. Goddamn.
Young Boris Diaw looking so athletic, damn.
By reilo133 points in regulation. Goddamn.I remember a stretch in 09, I think? where they scored 140 in three or four straight games.
Young Boris Diaw looking so athletic, damn.
That offense was a such a machine and we should all be really pissed that Steve Kerr robbed us of a year of it with that Shaq trade and then hiring Terry Porter.
We're playing Memphis tonight?
If not for basically hanging out with cool people all weekend, this bday weekend would be ass.
If not for basically hanging out with cool people all weekend, this bday weekend would be ass.
By rodeoclownI remember a stretch in 09, I think? where they scored 140 in three or four straight games.But Shaq was an all-star that year doe.
That offense was a such a machine and we should all be really pissed that Steve Kerr robbed us of a year of it with that Shaq trade and then hiring Terry Porter.
And now Kerr is coaching the spiritual successor to the Suns. Weird how that works.
By reilohow are the warriors the spiritual successors to the suns?By rodeoclownI remember a stretch in 09, I think? where they scored 140 in three or four straight games.But Shaq was an all-star that year doe.
That offense was a such a machine and we should all be really pissed that Steve Kerr robbed us of a year of it with that Shaq trade and then hiring Terry Porter.
And now Kerr is coaching the spiritual successor to the Suns. Weird how that works.
By reilo133 points in regulation. Goddamn.
Young Boris Diaw looking so athletic, damn.
wait what team got 133 points?
By psychintellecthow are the warriors the spiritual successors to the suns?
In the way they play and how high-octane their offense is. Maybe I haven't watched enough games of them, but I get that inkling when I do. Last time we saw a team average 110PPG was the Nash-era Suns.
By Zeus Ex Machinawait what team got 133 points?
Who else but a D'Antoni coached team?
Steve Nash's career is really amazing in hindsight. Unrecruited out of Canada to Santa Clara to 4th string PG to MVP.
By psychintellecthow are the warriors the spiritual successors to the suns?
Warriors are great but yeah, they don't compare to the Seven Seconds or Less Suns.
By Zeus Ex MachinaBy reilo133 points in regulation. Goddamn.
Young Boris Diaw looking so athletic, damn.
wait what team got 133 points?
LOL sorry forgot to include the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zDoYDwVCEw
By reiloBy Zeus Ex MachinaBy reilo133 points in regulation. Goddamn.
Young Boris Diaw looking so athletic, damn.
wait what team got 133 points?
LOL sorry forgot to include the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zDoYDwVCEw
lol I thought you were talking about a team got 133 last night.
By reiloLOL sorry forgot to include the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zDoYDwVCEw
So that's where Tony Parker got that off-foot scoop layup from
By HasphatsAntsBy reiloLOL sorry forgot to include the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zDoYDwVCEw
So that's where Tony Parker got that off-foot scoop layup from
Where every modern PG gets it from.
By reiloLOL sorry forgot to include the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zDoYDwVCEwThat bounce pass he threads to Barbosa like a minute in. So nice.