By n8 dogg Go To PostI would certainly argue Zidane and Fatnaldo are higher up the GOAT table than Totti.
It is a team sport. The reason why Messi and Ronaldo stand out is because they transcend the team aspect and win games and trophies by themselves.
Of course you can love football and love players and be great without playing for United, you're being extraordinarily disingenuous here to fit your argument. I have already said he is my favourite non-United player. Some of my favourite United players are Rafael and Danny Welbeck for fuck's sake.
But there is a reason no one but hixx thinks Kevin Phillips is better than Pele: because favouritism and tribalism does not necessarily come into an objective argument over who is the greatest player ever.
For that, it's probably pretty likely stats and trophies might help out, as impassionate as they are. When you combine the two, you get lads like Messi.
Fuck Totti. Totti ain't the GOAT. Fine, whatever, I never disagreed with that to begin with.
Would you argue they're higher up the GOAT table than Maradona?
I don't know why Monaco haven't been playing wide all night, that is where Juve struggle to defend. I guess Mario has made sch a great difference in how teams have to set up
By jtb Go To PostFuck Totti. Totti ain't the GOAT. Fine, whatever, I never disagreed with that to begin with.
Would you argue they're higher up the GOAT table than Maradona?
They're closer than Totti is. Ronaldo especially, having had an incredible impact on his team winning things thus standing out individually.
By Shanks D Zoro Go To PostI don't know why Monaco haven't been playing wide all night, that is where Juve struggle to defend.Imagine vs madrid, that is their only attacking strength
By JuveFan Go To PostImagine vs madrid, that is their only attacking strengthNot with Carvajal dead
I thought De Gea's new contract had a release clause? I remember it being mentioned as a condition for him to sign following the fax snafu.
By Gurthang Go To PostNot with Carvajal dead
Marcelo will play both flanks. calma
Mandzu wide is the new Eto'o wing back. What a genius Allegri is. What a genius Mou is.
Eto'o wing back is almost as incredible as Fabio-Gibson-O'Shea-Rafael midfield
Eto'o wing back is almost as incredible as Fabio-Gibson-O'Shea-Rafael midfield
By JuveFan Go To PostImagine vs madrid, that is their only attacking strength
If what you say is true then Juve should be able to handle it some what. Juve really stuggle when the ball is moved around on the ground.
Think the frst half against Bayern at J Stadium last season.
By n8 dogg Go To PostMandzu wide is the new Eto'o wing back. What a genius Allegri is. What a genius Mou is.isnt that why pogba left
Eto'o wing back is almost as incredible as Fabio-Gibson-O'Shea-Rafael midfield
By n8 dogg Go To PostWhen is the final, 27th?
June 5th, or there abouts.
I think the Coppa final is the same day. Italy not expecting much again.
By n8 dogg Go To PostThey're closer than Totti is. Ronaldo especially, having had an incredible impact on his team winning things thus standing out individually.
So is Maradona an unambitious failure of empty, unrealized potential or not?
Like, how do you justify the greatness of his career using your arbitrary measurements (again, you listed him in your GOAT list)? Is the over/under on "Professional ambition" 1.5 Serie A titles? Help me understand, here.
By HitchfireJP Go To Postisnt that why pogba left
he left because he realised he could never match gibson
By #ForzaMilan Go To PostThis Juve > Last season Juve. No contest.
Pogba holding them back obviously
@n8: Also if anything, Cristiano Ronaldo leaving United for Real Madrid proved that he was 1. unambitious and 2. selfish. I think you can fashion a pretty easy argument that he often sacrifices the team for his own individual gain. (which is obviously not to say that Ronaldo is anything other than a great player. But individual success and team success do not necessarily go hand in hand). He went somewhere he wouldn't have to sacrifice for the team.
But it's easy to win when you spend 100m+ every summer improving the other ten players of your team. Unless you're Manchester United.
But it's easy to win when you spend 100m+ every summer improving the other ten players of your team. Unless you're Manchester United.
By inky Go To PostHow is no one getting on the end of those crosses. Damn.
Buffon ate some garlic, puts everyone right off.
By HitchfireJP Go To PostThey made it moribund by being too smart for the competition iirc, and had done before weakening the opposition by buying Pjanic and Higuain. The other clubs in Serie A only have themselves to blame.Inter and Milan? Sure. Everyone else? Nah.
Juve have had and spent enormous mounds of cash for decades. All of the smaller teams have only ever had brief successes. Why Juve is so dominant recently has nothing to do with Napoli or Roma or Lazio or Fiorentina or whomever, and everything to do with the Milanese implosion.
Monaco knocking on the door. Can't believe they didn't get something out of that corner that just fell to the ground in the box. Jealous of Buffon.. it's amazing how high of a level he still plays at.
By Shanks D Zoro Go To PostBuffon deserves the balloon if Juve do the treble.The balloon he'll get, because the balon will go to CR7, for not winning a title in the season
By flinbad the flailer Go To PostInter and Milan? Sure. Everyone else? Nah.
Juve have had and spent enormous mounds of cash for decades. All of the smaller teams have only ever had brief successes. Why Juve is so dominant recently has nothing to do with Napoli or Roma or Lazio or Fiorentina or whomever, and everything to do with the Milanese implosion.
Roma make terrible signings.
I always believe that all great teams start with a keeper. They have been crying out for a leader at the back at their answer was an Arsenal reject.
Great win, but should have been more.
JUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
JUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Great win for Juventus.
Dragged Argentina to a World Cup because he was good enough individually he transcended team sport. Did a very similar thing with Napoli.
That alone is more than Totti, who was a very key part of a Serie A win but not its obvious fulcrum and a smaller (but still important) part of a World Cup win which was primarily based around Italy's defence.
In the end, I'm combining the two. Alan Shearer was an extraordinary scorer of goals year in year out and the best player for Newcastle for ages; that makes him one of many very great players, but he doesn't have the honours and accolades to say he conquered the game and is one of the greatest of all time. John O'Shea has five Premier League titles and a Champions League, but never did enough individually nor had the talent to go down as a great.
Totti has the talent but not the career to match people like Maradona who maximised their talent and dragged unremarkable sides to remarkable things. Totti has the talent but not the career to match people like Ronaldo who have played for teams like Barca and Real Madrid, scored shitloads of goals, scored eight goals at the World Cup and won some of the biggest trophies in world football playing key, immeasurable roles.
By jtb Go To PostSo is Maradona an unambitious failure of empty, unrealized potential or not?
Like, how do you justify the greatness of his career using your arbitrary measurements (again, you listed him in your GOAT list)? Is the over/under on "Professional ambition" 1.5 Serie A titles? Help me understand, here.
Dragged Argentina to a World Cup because he was good enough individually he transcended team sport. Did a very similar thing with Napoli.
That alone is more than Totti, who was a very key part of a Serie A win but not its obvious fulcrum and a smaller (but still important) part of a World Cup win which was primarily based around Italy's defence.
In the end, I'm combining the two. Alan Shearer was an extraordinary scorer of goals year in year out and the best player for Newcastle for ages; that makes him one of many very great players, but he doesn't have the honours and accolades to say he conquered the game and is one of the greatest of all time. John O'Shea has five Premier League titles and a Champions League, but never did enough individually nor had the talent to go down as a great.
Totti has the talent but not the career to match people like Maradona who maximised their talent and dragged unremarkable sides to remarkable things. Totti has the talent but not the career to match people like Ronaldo who have played for teams like Barca and Real Madrid, scored shitloads of goals, scored eight goals at the World Cup and won some of the biggest trophies in world football playing key, immeasurable roles.
By jtb Go To Post@n8: Also if anything, Cristiano Ronaldo leaving United for Real Madrid proved that he was 1. unambitious and 2. selfish. I think you can fashion a pretty easy argument that he often sacrifices the team for his own individual gain. (which is obviously not to say that Ronaldo is anything other than a great player. But individual success and team success do not necessarily go hand in hand). He went somewhere he wouldn't have to sacrifice for the team.
But it's easy to win when you spend 100m+ every summer improving the other ten players of your team. Unless you're Manchester United.
... how does this show that he is unambitious at all? He moved to the biggest club in the world.
By Kidjr Go To PostRonaldo is getting the Ballon this year isnt he
Na, Buffon.
By flinbad the flailer Go To PostInter and Milan? Sure. Everyone else? Nah.Maybe I underestimate Juve's spending in the context of PL spending, and the other members of the European elite
Juve have had and spent enormous mounds of cash for decades. All of the smaller teams have only ever had brief successes. Why Juve is so dominant recently has nothing to do with Napoli or Roma or Lazio or Fiorentina or whomever, and everything to do with the Milanese implosion.
By Kidjr Go To PostRonaldo is getting the Ballon this year isnt heIf Madrid win the double, yes.
Even just the CL I think will push him over.
Too bad it is Madrid, but this should be a good final.
Think Juve have a good chance. Didn't think they did against Barca.
Think Juve have a good chance. Didn't think they did against Barca.
By Wedward Go To PostToo bad it is Madrid, but this should be a good final.Wedward I wish you could look at Madrid in a better way for my sake.
Think Juve have a good chance. Didn't think they did against Barca.
By #ForzaMilan Go To PostApparently my whatsapp is dead indeedThank you. It met the same fate as Milan. #Rip
Juve will have more problems with Madrid than they did with Barca.
Madrid midfield and attack is better this season. Should be a good final.
Madrid midfield and attack is better this season. Should be a good final.
