A Song of Ice and Fire Sucks and GURM isn't a good writer
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Come at me. He's a fat, lazy hack who doesn't even like his most famous creation and has no plans to finish it.
Come at me. He's a fat, lazy hack who doesn't even like his most famous creation and has no plans to finish it.Me and Adam been saying this for years.
For the most part, at best, ASOIAF has devolved into a series of completely unrelated short stories.
At worst it's a put together story in a world that is devolving incredibly quickly into an absolute shambles. Major plot points aren't ended properly at all, they're just discarded at random as the writer gets bored of them by killing everyone related. Mainly because, there's no good reasoning behind a lot of the distraction side plots. None. They can't be justified within the lore of the series.
I mean, he's introduced conflicting religions without exploring them at all.
There's so many ass things about the series. It's really a terrible series of books.
The TV show is masking a lot of them.
I completely agree. I'm glad that someone other than giri and myself recognize him for the hack that he is.
I read that originally it was planned as a trilogy, and that the material covered by books 1-3 were planned to be just book 1 and that basically was all he ever planned for.
It explains so much why there seemed to be some amount of structure through those 3 books and why the whole thing has just fallen apart ever since. Every time I read one of the sample chapters for the next book (which are all obviously stuff that he wrote forever ago for book 4b, er 5) it becomes apparent that 1, he wrote a lot of stuff with the 5 year gap in mind and didn't really edit anything afterwards to make more sense and 2, he has no idea where he wants any of this to go anymore. I'm not even sure he knows what kind of books he wants to be writing (nevermind the fact that he doesn't want to be writing them).
I enjoy reading the nerds who think he's hard at work on book 5 (er 6) and that he can still finish that shit before the TV series wraps up. I honestly think the Game of Thrones TV series will be done before he puts another book out.
Also, ignoring just the complete and utterly shit plot, his writing is not good and seems to be getting progressively worse. The dialogue is bad, the descriptions extravagant, too much reliance on weird repeated phrases and made up words etc etc. I know some of these are common problems in the fantasy genre but I dunno. I guess its just because he gets praised to high heavens that it irks me so much. I honestly don't see what makes him, or the books, so much better than say Tad Williams, other than GURM likes child rape more.
It explains so much why there seemed to be some amount of structure through those 3 books and why the whole thing has just fallen apart ever since. Every time I read one of the sample chapters for the next book (which are all obviously stuff that he wrote forever ago for book 4b, er 5) it becomes apparent that 1, he wrote a lot of stuff with the 5 year gap in mind and didn't really edit anything afterwards to make more sense and 2, he has no idea where he wants any of this to go anymore. I'm not even sure he knows what kind of books he wants to be writing (nevermind the fact that he doesn't want to be writing them).
I enjoy reading the nerds who think he's hard at work on book 5 (er 6) and that he can still finish that shit before the TV series wraps up. I honestly think the Game of Thrones TV series will be done before he puts another book out.
Also, ignoring just the complete and utterly shit plot, his writing is not good and seems to be getting progressively worse. The dialogue is bad, the descriptions extravagant, too much reliance on weird repeated phrases and made up words etc etc. I know some of these are common problems in the fantasy genre but I dunno. I guess its just because he gets praised to high heavens that it irks me so much. I honestly don't see what makes him, or the books, so much better than say Tad Williams, other than GURM likes child rape more.
Also, I just started reading Wheel of Time, which certainly has its fair share of problems so far, but I at least can identify that there is a discernible arc for the main dude. Then again it takes 14 books for it to complete so maybe its just a genre problem. Maybe by the end of book 14 Daenerys Targaryen will actually reach Westeros.
Also, I just started reading Wheel of Time, which certainly has its fair share of problems so far, but I at least can identify that there is a discernible arc for the main dude. Then again it takes 14 books for it to complete so maybe its just a genre problem. Maybe by the end of book 14 Daenerys Targaryen will actually reach Westeros.WoT is a far far far better series.
Robert Jordan actually had a structured plan for the series. it was also meant to be a 1 book story, then 3 book series, then he got extended to "how ever many it is going to take to finish your series".
But with each character, each plot, each arc, each story, you know where they're going. You know the role they're playing.
Yeah, it's not a short series, but if you don't mind long stories it's a terrific read.
I was bored of ASOIAF after the 3rd book. It was falling apart.
*Nynaeve tugs at her braid*
Haha any time I mention WoT this is pretty much the first response people who have read it bring up. It must be traumatically bad.
y'all some tasteless mothers up in this
he's only gotten better as a writer; easily his strongest prose is in affc and adwd
your complaints about him losing his structure arent even accurate, especially when you do the right thing and read 4 and 5 as the one book they're intended to be. a feast for dragons is thematically, and in terms of character work, by far his best work. the actual themes and structural ploys he's using and developing, the ways different characters complement one another's stories despite being a world away, it's all very solid, and it shines way more clearly when you group them together. my fav attempt at it is by some bros on another forum and it makes the read fucking spectacular TBQH
if u realise he's only written one actual book since asos it makes a lot more sense
but also y'all tasteless mothers jus sayin
he's only gotten better as a writer; easily his strongest prose is in affc and adwd
your complaints about him losing his structure arent even accurate, especially when you do the right thing and read 4 and 5 as the one book they're intended to be. a feast for dragons is thematically, and in terms of character work, by far his best work. the actual themes and structural ploys he's using and developing, the ways different characters complement one another's stories despite being a world away, it's all very solid, and it shines way more clearly when you group them together. my fav attempt at it is by some bros on another forum and it makes the read fucking spectacular TBQH
if u realise he's only written one actual book since asos it makes a lot more sense
but also y'all tasteless mothers jus sayin
y'all some tasteless mothers up in this
he's only gotten better as a writer; easily his strongest prose is in affc and adwd
your complaints about him losing his structure arent even accurate, especially when you do the right thing and read 4 and 5 as the one book they're intended to be. a feast for dragons is thematically, and in terms of character work, by far his best work. the actual themes and structural ploys he's using and developing, the ways different characters complement one another's stories despite being a world away, it's all very solid, and it shines way more clearly when you group them together. my fav attempt at it is by some bros on another forum and it makes the read fucking spectacular TBQH
if u realise he's only written one actual book since asos it makes a lot more sense
but also y'all tasteless mothers jus sayin
lol.
no need to troll duki. You can just agree.
I think we can all agree that AFFC was bad. I go as far to say terrible if you completely removed Cersei's chapters. But the second half of Dance and the two chapters from Winds already released are much, much better, and already point to tying up some of the nagging story lines (the "Mereen Knot" as Martin refers to it was a decade long mistake; if he could do it over again, I'm sure he would have cut out half of the filler, if only so he could give Tyrion and Brienne something interesting to do in the meantime). I can't call George a bad writer after how amazing the third book was, and how good the Dunk & Egg stories are (I just read the first graphic novel).
The show, despite a weak season 2, has the potential to be better if they present AFFC/Dance in a better order and cut out all of the meandering LOTR-esque traveling bullshit. Plus, there's the chance they can write their own ending if George doesn't get there in time. I'm excited either way.
The show, despite a weak season 2, has the potential to be better if they present AFFC/Dance in a better order and cut out all of the meandering LOTR-esque traveling bullshit. Plus, there's the chance they can write their own ending if George doesn't get there in time. I'm excited either way.
Trying to shit on ASOIAF is bad enough, but trying to hype WoT in the process.... sweet jesusYou don't have to try to shit on ASOIAF, it shits on it self.
y'all some tasteless mothers up in this
he's only gotten better as a writer; easily his strongest prose is in affc and adwd
your complaints about him losing his structure arent even accurate, especially when you do the right thing and read 4 and 5 as the one book they're intended to be. a feast for dragons is thematically, and in terms of character work, by far his best work. the actual themes and structural ploys he's using and developing, the ways different characters complement one another's stories despite being a world away, it's all very solid, and it shines way more clearly when you group them together. my fav attempt at it is by some bros on another forum and it makes the read fucking spectacular TBQH
if u realise he's only written one actual book since asos it makes a lot more sense
but also y'all tasteless mothers jus sayin
Yo, when did you let Phoenix Dark have access to your account?
Trying to shit on ASOIAF is bad enough, but trying to hype WoT in the process.... sweet jesus
I honestly don't think WoT is any better, but at least it doesn't talk about fat pink masts!
Havent read either.
Wheel of Time is 14 books? lol, it loses by default.
ASoIaF is gonna take at least 8 books to finish, assuming it ever finishes.
First 3 books are really good. After that... It's been Sanderson bad...
Robert Jordan hate? Woe is the world
Robert Jordan hate? Woe is the world
Also, I just started reading Wheel of Time, which certainly has its fair share of problems so far, but I at least can identify that there is a discernible arc for the main dude. Then again it takes 14 books for it to complete so maybe its just a genre problem. Maybe by the end of book 14 Daenerys Targaryen will actually reach Westeros.WoT is a far far far better series.
Robert Jordan actually had a structured plan for the series. it was also meant to be a 1 book story, then 3 book series, then he got extended to "how ever many it is going to take to finish your series".
But with each character, each plot, each arc, each story, you know where they're going. You know the role they're playing.
Yeah, it's not a short series, but if you don't mind long stories it's a terrific read.
I was bored of ASOIAF after the 3rd book. It was falling apart.
Robert Jordan had so much structure.. His world was complete. Re-read the prolouge of the first book again and you will see how epic he was...
I think he was complete because he ripped off Tolkien so much. There doesn't seem to be much reason for the series to be 14 books other than people kept buying them.
Also he can't write female characters (not that GURM can either) and he falls into the same traps all fantasy writers do: way too detailed descriptions of food/clothing/interiors, travelogues, characters alternating between feasting and famining, using 50 words when 5 will do.
Reading ASoIaF and WoT has reminded me why I stopped reading fantasy in the first place.
Also he can't write female characters (not that GURM can either) and he falls into the same traps all fantasy writers do: way too detailed descriptions of food/clothing/interiors, travelogues, characters alternating between feasting and famining, using 50 words when 5 will do.
Reading ASoIaF and WoT has reminded me why I stopped reading fantasy in the first place.
I think he was complete because he ripped off Tolkien so much. There doesn't seem to be much reason for the series to be 14 books other than people kept buying them.
Also he can't write female characters (not that GURM can either) and he falls into the same traps all fantasy writers do: way too detailed descriptions of food/clothing/interiors, travelogues, characters alternating between feasting and famining, using 50 words when 5 will do.
Reading ASoIaF and WoT has reminded me why I stopped reading fantasy in the first place.
Think most fantasy writers have used Tolkien as a template of sorts... Jordan's females were quite bad tho...
While I agree that Jordan was over descriptive most times he was good at it making it an easy read
I think he was complete because he ripped off Tolkien so much. There doesn't seem to be much reason for the series to be 14 books other than people kept buying them.
Also he can't write female characters (not that GURM can either) and he falls into the same traps all fantasy writers do: way too detailed descriptions of food/clothing/interiors, travelogues, characters alternating between feasting and famining, using 50 words when 5 will do.
Reading ASoIaF and WoT has reminded me why I stopped reading fantasy in the first place.
This may be more your problem than the actual writing. The long descriptions and...interesting dialogue has been a staple of the fantasy genre since Tolkien. That seems to be part of your problem with GRRM, but id argue its a genre problem.
Back on topic of the books, the first three are great. Good world creation, fairly detailed characters, and a clear direction. I think most people's problem with 4 and the first part of 5 is that its so directionless. But it honestly is because its the calm before the eventually *ahem* storm of swords. You need the backstories and convoluted traveling because he can't just cut to random X character after they get to wherever they were going since he had already established everything is being told in real time. Meh. He also didn't do us any service by lumping most of the shitty characters in 4 and most of the awesome ones if 5 (fuck sansa and the other boring asshole in 4). Plus, having Dany basically yearn to suck a dick for a book kind of killed my boner for her character until she learned from the many mistakes she made and rode Drogon out of town.
That said, I hated book 4 and parts of 5. But then it got better and I am very excited for 6.
I can't remember if I stopped reading at a Storm of Swords or a Feast for Crows, but I hung in there long enough to read how Tyron exacted his revenge on his whore and his father before GTF0 and how John Snow had his cherry popped by a wildling woman. I figured after that, any and everything outside of Dany invading the mainland/alliance being formed with the wildlings on the other side of the wall is needless filler.
After all, I remember reading in the first book about the mythical/ghostlike creatures beyond the wall (which is also the opening of S1E1 of the HBO series), and that was what, 4-5,000 pages later that I'm just now seeing them again.
I agree that you can't allow your own narrative to get out of hand like that. I actually think that his attention to detail is great for fantasy fiction. But trust me, the fat black/grey cape dude I hated. I can't stand the young handicapped kid chapters. They're just bad characters but there is a focus on them.
After all, I remember reading in the first book about the mythical/ghostlike creatures beyond the wall (which is also the opening of S1E1 of the HBO series), and that was what, 4-5,000 pages later that I'm just now seeing them again.
I agree that you can't allow your own narrative to get out of hand like that. I actually think that his attention to detail is great for fantasy fiction. But trust me, the fat black/grey cape dude I hated. I can't stand the young handicapped kid chapters. They're just bad characters but there is a focus on them.
And lately he's been talking about going to 8 books, which is funny since he hasn't even started on book 6.
I can't wait for the TV show to finally surpass him fully.
I can't wait for the TV show to finally surpass him fully.
And lately he's been talking about going to 8 books, which is funny since he hasn't even started on book 6.He has definitely started on book 6. Several sample chapters have already been released.
I can't wait for the TV show to finally surpass him fully.
And the 8 book thing isn't new--his standard line has been that he thinks it'll take 7, but he won't rule out more if the story requires it.
Yeah Wheel of Time is far superior. The only problem was that the series had gotten so popular so it just kept going.
And lately he's been talking about going to 8 books, which is funny since he hasn't even started on book 6.He has definitely started on book 6. Several sample chapters have already been released.
I can't wait for the TV show to finally surpass him fully.
And the 8 book thing isn't new--his standard line has been that he thinks it'll take 7, but he won't rule out more if the story requires it.
LMAO
like he has any fully sketched out map of the story.
He'll go to 20 books if HBO sign up and pay him for 20 seasons.
And lately he's been talking about going to 8 books, which is funny since he hasn't even started on book 6.He has definitely started on book 6. Several sample chapters have already been released.
I can't wait for the TV show to finally surpass him fully.
And the 8 book thing isn't new--his standard line has been that he thinks it'll take 7, but he won't rule out more if the story requires it.
LMAO
like he has any fully sketched out map of the story.
He'll go to 20 books if HBO sign up and pay him for 20 seasons.
HBO doesn't have to anymore. He gave them an outline of how he sees it ending (because honestly he has no actual plan yet) so they're pretty much free to use that as they see fit. All he can do is whine on his Livejournal like a 15 year old girl when they surpass him.
Yeah Wheel of Time is far superior. The only problem was that the series had gotten so popular so it just kept going.
I think near the end.. Jordan felt like it was keeping him alive..
Yeah Wheel of Time is far superior. The only problem was that the series had gotten so popular so it just kept going.
I think near the end.. Jordan felt like it was keeping him alive..
:(
I think I stopped reading after book 4 or 5 because at the time my interest went to something else, but I kept buying the books. Maybe it's a good time to continue.
Or start over from the beginning. It's been a long while.
Yeah Wheel of Time is far superior. The only problem was that the series had gotten so popular so it just kept going.
I think near the end.. Jordan felt like it was keeping him alive..
:(
I think I stopped reading after book 4 or 5 because at the time my interest went to something else, but I kept buying the books. Maybe it's a good time to continue.
Or start over from the beginning. It's been a long while.
I loved the series until Brandon took over... I don't hate his writing style, but he didn't do most of the characters justice imo.. but that's a different debate for a different time.
And lately he's been talking about going to 8 books, which is funny since he hasn't even started on book 6.He has definitely started on book 6. Several sample chapters have already been released.
I can't wait for the TV show to finally surpass him fully.
And the 8 book thing isn't new--his standard line has been that he thinks it'll take 7, but he won't rule out more if the story requires it.
!@#$%^&*
like he has any fully sketched out map of the story.
He'll go to 20 books if HBO sign up and pay him for 20 seasons.
HBO doesn't have to anymore. He gave them an outline of how he sees it ending (because honestly he has no actual plan yet) so they're pretty much free to use that as they see fit. All he can do is whine on his Livejournal like a 15 year old girl when they surpass him.
He has no idea how his own narrative is going to end? Gross.
Wow, ASoIaF is such a waste of time.
This may be more your problem than the actual writing. The long descriptions and...interesting dialogue has been a staple of the fantasy genre since Tolkien. That seems to be part of your problem with GRRM, but id argue its a genre problem.I agree that most of the problems I have with George R. R. Martin also apply to Tolkien - long and pointless descriptions, stuffy writing, inability to write female characters, bad dialogue, basic prose construction, unnecessarily splitting of the narrative etc.
Personally, I couldn't even finish the first book, it was just such a tedious read, but to his credit, at least GRRM doesn't have so much terrible poetry and none of that uncomfortable racial/colonial undertones Lord of The Rings has.
I haven't heard that at all.And lately he's been talking about going to 8 books, which is funny since he hasn't even started on book 6.He has definitely started on book 6. Several sample chapters have already been released.
I can't wait for the TV show to finally surpass him fully.
And the 8 book thing isn't new--his standard line has been that he thinks it'll take 7, but he won't rule out more if the story requires it.
!@#$%^&*
like he has any fully sketched out map of the story.
He'll go to 20 books if HBO sign up and pay him for 20 seasons.
HBO doesn't have to anymore. He gave them an outline of how he sees it ending (because honestly he has no actual plan yet) so they're pretty much free to use that as they see fit. All he can do is whine on his Livejournal like a 15 year old girl when they surpass him.
He has no idea how his own narrative is going to end? Gross.
Wow, ASoIaF is such a waste of time.
I think he definitely has an endgame in mind. It's getting there (see: Knot, Meereenese) that's taking longer than he had planned on.
I haven't heard that at all.And lately he's been talking about going to 8 books, which is funny since he hasn't even started on book 6.He has definitely started on book 6. Several sample chapters have already been released.
I can't wait for the TV show to finally surpass him fully.
And the 8 book thing isn't new--his standard line has been that he thinks it'll take 7, but he won't rule out more if the story requires it.
!@#$%^&*
like he has any fully sketched out map of the story.
He'll go to 20 books if HBO sign up and pay him for 20 seasons.
HBO doesn't have to anymore. He gave them an outline of how he sees it ending (because honestly he has no actual plan yet) so they're pretty much free to use that as they see fit. All he can do is whine on his Livejournal like a 15 year old girl when they surpass him.
He has no idea how his own narrative is going to end? Gross.
Wow, ASoIaF is such a waste of time.
I think he definitely has an endgame in mind. It's getting there (see: Knot, Meereenese) that's taking longer than he had planned on.
Is his endgame "and a comet comes down and kills fucking everyone, and eveyrone in this scene has their tits/cunt or dick out."
And lately he's been talking about going to 8 books, which is funny since he hasn't even started on book 6.He has definitely started on book 6. Several sample chapters have already been released.
I can't wait for the TV show to finally surpass him fully.
And the 8 book thing isn't new--his standard line has been that he thinks it'll take 7, but he won't rule out more if the story requires it.
The sample chapters are all from book 5, he just ran out of space for them. He hasn't written anything new since book 5 was published. If you believe anything else then I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.
This may be more your problem than the actual writing. The long descriptions and...interesting dialogue has been a staple of the fantasy genre since Tolkien. That seems to be part of your problem with GRRM, but id argue its a genre problem.I agree that most of the problems I have with George R. R. Martin also apply to Tolkien - long and pointless descriptions, stuffy writing, inability to write female characters, bad dialogue, basic prose construction, unnecessarily splitting of the narrative etc.
Personally, I couldn't even finish the first book, it was just such a tedious read, but to his credit, at least GRRM doesn't have so much terrible poetry and none of that uncomfortable racial/colonial undertones Lord of The Rings has.
GURM just has his blatant racism, child sex fantasies and rape fetishes to deal with. But in general I agree that all Western fantasy suffers from over wrought descriptions of EVERY FUCKING PLACE and EVERY FUCKING PIECE OF CLOTHING and EVERY FUCKING THING ANYONE EATS. Like you can almost invariably skip large chunks of the first novel in any fantasy series because a good portion of it will be the main characters getting separated and lost in the woods and then running out of food to eat and there being nothing but minimal amounts of acorn paste with which to subsist on.
I haven't heard that at all.And lately he's been talking about going to 8 books, which is funny since he hasn't even started on book 6.He has definitely started on book 6. Several sample chapters have already been released.
I can't wait for the TV show to finally surpass him fully.
And the 8 book thing isn't new--his standard line has been that he thinks it'll take 7, but he won't rule out more if the story requires it.
!@#$%^&*
like he has any fully sketched out map of the story.
He'll go to 20 books if HBO sign up and pay him for 20 seasons.
HBO doesn't have to anymore. He gave them an outline of how he sees it ending (because honestly he has no actual plan yet) so they're pretty much free to use that as they see fit. All he can do is whine on his Livejournal like a 15 year old girl when they surpass him.
He has no idea how his own narrative is going to end? Gross.
Wow, ASoIaF is such a waste of time.
I think he definitely has an endgame in mind. It's getting there (see: Knot, Meereenese) that's taking longer than he had planned on.
He is literally making the series up as he goes along. That's why shit like the Mereenese knot happen (because he doesn't think anything through as he writes it) and why things like the knot end up being resolved in stupid ways that aren't particularly satisfying. I'm willing to be whatever tiny bit of info he gave the HBO guys was literally all he's considered in terms of end game. This isn't something like Babylon 5 where he has it all planned out, and given his undeniable laziness he will stretch it forever because he'll just keep adding plots that ultimately go no where.
Trying to shit on ASOIAF is bad enough, but trying to hype WoT in the process.... sweet jesus
I was going to say this, but I see you beat me to the punch.
He is literally making the series up as he goes along. That's why shit like the Mereenese knot happen (because he doesn't think anything through as he writes it) and why things like the knot end up being resolved in stupid ways that aren't particularly satisfying. I'm willing to be whatever tiny bit of info he gave the HBO guys was literally all he's considered in terms of end game. This isn't something like Babylon 5 where he has it all planned out, and given his undeniable laziness he will stretch it forever because he'll just keep adding plots that ultimately go no where.Had to look up the mereenese knot, damn, that's hilariously bad.
Anyway, I think it's a fucking stupid way to write such divergent story, the main plotlines have so little to do with each other, and at least based on the show they just kill the pacing and frustrate viewers by doing a multi-episode cliffhangers (want to know if Dinklage gonna live? fuck you, here is some now fighting).
I mean sure, there might be a payoff down the road, but it has been 4 seasons already, that "no showing my boobs no more" dragon lady has nothing to do with anything so far.
It's like if someone tried to do make all the Marvel movies leading to the avengers as a single intercutting film.
He is literally making the series up as he goes along. That's why !@#$%^&* like the Mereenese knot happen (because he doesn't think anything through as he writes it) and why things like the knot end up being resolved in stupid ways that aren't particularly satisfying. I'm willing to be whatever tiny bit of info he gave the HBO guys was literally all he's considered in terms of end game. This isn't something like Babylon 5 where he has it all planned out, and given his undeniable laziness he will stretch it forever because he'll just keep adding plots that ultimately go no where.Had to look up the mereenese knot, !@#$%^&*, that's hilariously bad.
Anyway, I think it's a !@#$%^&* stupid way to write such divergent story, the main plotlines have so little to do with each other, and at least based on the show they just kill the pacing and frustrate viewers by doing a multi-episode cliffhangers (want to know if Dinklage gonna live? !@#$%^&* you, here is some now fighting).
I mean sure, there might be a payoff down the road, but it has been 4 seasons already, that "no showing my boobs no more" dragon lady has nothing to do with anything so far.
It's like if someone tried to do make all the Marvel movies leading to the avengers as a single intercutting film.
The last novel I read was A Dance with Dragons, which, IMO, is the closest you will ever get to an ending (besides the John Snow arc).